Provocative Christmas billboard

[Potemkin]

St Matthews unveils provocative Christmas billboard

The latest St Matthews billboard shows Mary with a positive pregnancy test
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Wed, 14 Dec 2011 3:11p.m.

By 3 News online staff

http://wa2.www.3news.co.nz/Portals/0-Articles/236553/billboard-1200.jpg
St Matthews-in-the-City Church has again rolled out a provocative billboard in time for Christmas - their latest showing Mary with a positive pregnancy test.

The church says the billboard aimed to “avoid the sentimental [and] trite” and “spark thought and conversation”.

St Matthews has caused controversy with numerous provocative billboards in recent years.

In 2009, their Christmas billboard showed Mary and Joseph in bed with the tag line, “Poor Joseph, God was a hard act to follow.”

Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/St-Matthews-unveils-provocative-Christmas-billboard/tabid/423/articleID/236553/Default.aspx#ixzz1gWSE5IfG

[Oric]

Is this the right forum ?

[CanadaSue]

It will generate discussion - so yeah.

[Oric]

She does not need a pregnancy test, she is having morning sickness, as the painting shows ...

CS : why not merge this forum with news ?

[CanadaSue]

This forum was set up as distinct from news to offer people a room for discussion which may or may not be related to articles in the news.

[Oric]

i dont want to troll Pote's thread but :

Here is a new place for members to express their opinion and write editorials on news, politics, the economy, or life in general.


Pote did not express an opinion or write an editorial ... I thought the sub section "outside the box" was more likely to fit with your description above ...

[CanadaSue]

He ofered something about which others may choose to write. I plan to - have some errands to run first & a few other things to do before I spend much time online.

[jane333]

Many ancient myths attribute 'virgin' birth to so-called 'gods', not just the Jesus story.

Could young girls in brutally paternalistic societies (like today's Arab cultures) have been drugged and raped, waking with no knowledge of the act? Or was the idea of godly impregnation such a deep desire in ancient cultures that it was recycled again and again in their religious fictions? We'll probably never know.

Imagine the hoo-ha that would ensue TODAY if a promiscuous teen claimed 'immaculate conception' for her pregnancy.

What I want to know is, why has Christianity and its ridiculous allegories survived until the modern era? For that matter, why have ANY of the world's superstitions escaped relegation to myth status? Have the appropriate numbers of centuries simply not passed, yet? And what horrors will replace these dogmas when they finally die, too?

[rryan]

Many ancient myths attribute 'virgin' birth to so-called 'gods', not just the Jesus story.

Could young girls in brutally paternalistic societies (like today's Arab cultures) have been drugged and raped, waking with no knowledge of the act? Or was the idea of godly impregnation such a deep desire in ancient cultures that it was recycled again and again in their religious fictions? We'll probably never know.

Imagine the hoo-ha that would ensue TODAY if a promiscuous teen claimed 'immaculate conception' for her pregnancy.

What I want to know is, why has Christianity and its ridiculous allegories survived until the modern era? For that matter, why have ANY of the world's superstitions escaped relegation to myth status? Have the appropriate numbers of centuries simply not passed, yet? And what horrors will replace these dogmas when they finally die, too?


Once again, insulting vast groups of people does nothing positive at all and in fact creates a situation where people who would normally be somewhat sympathetic to your views become resistant.

I am no christian (or any other religion for that matter) but the vast majority of my friends, neighbors, and many people here on this board ARE and they are not stupid or ridiculous.

I'll let you in something else, in the course of my life I have turned a lot of people away from their religious beliefs and convinced them they were wrong about what they believed. Looking back at what that did to a few of the weaker ones makes that one of the few things I truly regret ever doing.

If people are not directly threatening you or demanding you follow what they do you should just leave them the hell alone.

[Malcolm]

You dont get "out" very much ..........do you "jane"

[CanadaSue]

The more I look at it - the more I'm impressed with the artwork used on the billboard. It's a perfect example of art done so as to leave all interpretation up to the viewer. Look at her eyes first of all - no expression save what the viewer chooses to put there in conjunction with the rest of the body language.

Her hand is over her mouth but... we can't tell what her mouth is doing behind it. Is it open in a gasp of shock? Of dismay? Of astonishment? Is the hand stifling an exclamation & if so, why? To not disturb others? Because it's not polite to exclaim loudly? Again on the hand - is it a pensive gesture? Many people place their hand over their mouth when they're deep in thought & young Mary of the bible would have had plenty to think about.

"This pregnancy test confirms my vision!" Or... "Oh Lord, I was SO hoping it was merely a vivid dream? Who in their right mind is going to believe me?" These apply if the story happened as detailed in the bible or if the person known as Mary truly believed these events happened to her as she percieved them.

Look at her hand, at her face & neck. Thee's no sign of stress or tension in the form of corded tendons, stiffened muscles. She's holding the pregnancy test in a relaxed way... unless that's shock.

All this long winded blather on my part to say that yes, there's a lot in the billboard or in what's NOT there that could spark some fascinating conversations among & between believers, between Christians & non-Christians.

No matter my own beliefs, I say kudos to the church who raised this billboard for having the courage to do so. I'll have to find some of their previous ones & more importantly, any articles or transcripts that resulted from them.

[flourbug]

I am not a fan. Last years version - Mary and Joseph in bed - was good. I laughed at that one. But this picture goes against the grain.

The thing about Mary was her utter faith and trust in God.

The Angel comes to her and the way he starts is confusing. "Miriam, kecharitomene." Hail Mary, full of Grace. She is "greatly troubled" by this. What does he mean? He tells her she has found favor with God. She is blessed amongst all the women on earth, she is the vessel that will hold the Messiah. Shocking, scary, worrying... and she doesn't pause, or run, or ask questions, or protest, or give excuses.

She has complete trust, and she is joyful: "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word"

I don't see that in the picture. I see, "Wow, it really is true!" Mary would not have ANY doubt. She KNOWS it is true. She's walking on air. Whatever you want, God, here I am. I submit completely, without reservation, without hesitation.

[Mousehound]

When I saw the picture I had a totally different take on it. Each pregnant woman faced with challenges and hard "modern" choices could be pregnant with a future "Jesus." Each child is full of possibilities, and she could be like Mary, a vessel for someone special. I saw that picture as being anti-abortion propaganda.

[flourbug]

I saw that picture as being anti-abortion propaganda.

I hadn't thought about it that way. I can see it.

[CanadaSue]

To address fb's point first - perhaps it's not MARY'S faith or lack thereof being examined. It may be addressing questions or lingering doubts among Christians.

Mouse - I hadn't looked at it that way.

I simply see the very first moments of registering a positive - her mind can go in a dozen different directions but hasn't chosen one yet.

[dharma]

I must be irredeemably cynical. I see, "Oh, crap, I'm pregnant! How am I going to explain this? . . . . Wait, I have an idea."

It strikes me as distasteful if one doesn't believe, frankly sacrilegious if one does.

What I want to know is, why has (sic) Christianity and its ridiculous allegories survived until the modern era?
Because it offers people promises of redemption, paradisiacal life after death, and the unconditional love of an entity greater than themselves—great enough to create the whole universe, in fact. Kind of a dumb question, isn't it, Jane?

By the way, Jane, do you know the difference between a polite agnostic and a militant agnostic? The polite agnostic says, "I don't know." The militant agnostic adds, "AND YOU DON'T EITHER!"

[CanadaSue]

Why has any faith survived - whether or not it's 'evolved' along with our understanding of the universe?

Because as dharma says, it offers something bigger than we are.

It can be solemnly overwhelming & intimidating to sit on a grassy plain at night & stare at the night sky. So many stars... so many. You can get mentally lost in the vastness of space & it begs so many questions. I can only begin to imagine the awe, the fear, our less educated ancestors may have felt when seeing the stunning forces of nature. Hour upon hour of aurora borealis effortless shifting patterns & colours at a pace almost impossible to keep up with. Eruptions of lava melting earth even as new ground is created. Earthquakes, the raw force of hurricanes.

Then, the more personal faces of day to day life & tragedy. Far too much of humanity's existence is known for back breaking, mindless work carried out against a background of staggering deprivation. Never mind buccolic visions of a more 'natural' life. For long periods of time we enjoyed 'nature' in the form of constant dysentary, nutritional deficiencies, infectious diseases, lives where personal control over things as minor as what we'd do for a living, whom we might marry, where we'd live were completely beyond our control. A farmer might not mark the passing of a king because said king died as a result of fraticide but because that day, his two sons died of smallpox, leaving no one to bring in the harvest - far more relevant than the death of a distant king.

Is it any wonder we sought myths, allegories, metaphors, faiths... ANYTHING that struck us as a damned sight better than the sheer drudgery of slaving away our short lives until we met a miseable end in our 30s or 40s? There's no question the quick, smart & sleazy seized on to this & took advantage of faith for their own personal gain. Name me ONE human endeavor where that hasn't happened. The Church, (Catholic in this case), as well as others have been some of the best known concentraters of wealth known to man... as well as consumers & interpretors of intelligence methods the CIA would die for.

The MAJORITY of people seem hard wired to seek something. I don't. So... does that make me smarter somehow than the majority of humans? Or... am I missing something in my brain? I don't know - I may hever know. All I know is that I'm not wired to believe - not ins something I've ever read an explanation for that makes sense - excusethe mangled sentence.

Don't you think there are times when I wish I did? There have been times in my life when I wished with all my might I HAD something 'bigger & better' to lean on, when I hoped that after I died I might 'graduate' to some sort of paradise. Sadly, wishes aren't horses & this begger walks - she doesn't ride.

[Nightowl]

I'm an agnostic, but I have to agree with CanadaSue. Religion is an extremely powerful force, and you have to respect it. Whether Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Animism, what have you, these beliefs have persisted for thousands of years.
There is something hardwired in humans to seek something greater than themselves, maybe it's an instinct. And I don't think that will ever go away.

[jane333]

Once again, insulting vast groups of people does nothing positive at all....I am no Christian... but the vast majority of my friends, neighbors, and many people here on this board ARE....

From my non-superstitious pov, it's remarkably easy to conclude that religious fictions HAVE INDEED harmed us. And continue to do so. Make whatever claims about your neighbors and friends that you wish. My conclusions are my own; if you want for them to be an insult to your sensibilities, that is a decision all YOUR own.

---------- Post added at 12:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------

....The polite agnostic says, "I don't know." The militant agnostic adds, "AND YOU DON'T EITHER!"

Ah, dharma. Always the diplomat. LOL


You dont get "out" very much ..........do you "jane"

Sending that right back at ya, Malcolm.

[rryan]

From my non-superstitious pov, it's remarkably easy to conclude that religious fictions HAVE INDEED harmed us. And continue to do so. Make whatever claims about your neighbors and friends that you wish. My conclusions are my own; if you want for them to be an insult to your sensibilities, that is a decision all YOUR own.

---------- Post added at 12:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------



Ah, dharma. Always the diplomat. LOL




Sending that right back at ya, Malcolm.

Not an insult to my sensibilities at all.

I've been dealing with people and negotiating for a living the majority of my adult life and statements such as the one you made do not make people sympathetic to your point of view.

If you are not interested in bringing people over to your point of view, then statements like that only serve as pointless insults.

[Exodia]

The fact that just about all cultures incorporate some sort of spirituality suggests to me that it has a positive net effect, otherwise it would have been naturally selected out a long time ago. We humans and our ridiculous superstitions have been quite prolific.

[flourbug]

There are a lot of things incorporated into society that do not have a positive net effect. War, for one.

Spirituality was a way of connecting with the earth. Mankind is so far above other animals intellectually, it is impossible to ignore. There are stronger, faster and hardier animals - but none so clever, dangerous, or adaptable to their environment. How do we reconcile this gap? Why are WE special?

Religion is the organized politicization of spirituality.

[jane333]

....I've been dealing with people and negotiating for a living the majority of my adult life ......

rryan,

The world is filled with people who hold secular and rational ideas. You're going to have to deal with that, too, I'd imagine.

[Ross]

# Jesus had multiple siblings so she could be testing for one of them .

# Indeed by now the descendants of his siblings are probably
so numerous they could fill many jails .

# To my ( limited ) knowledge there is no suggestion that Mary did not
display symptoms of being pregnant . Presumably if had she suitable
technology available abnormal children may have been detected and
aborted . ( What could be the problem with that ? :D )

# James ( brother of Jesus ) appears to have been unconvinced of
his divinity until long after his unfortunate execution by the Italians .
Personally I have some sympathy for the execution of those making
absurdly pretentious claims . Meh , make that waterboarding .


.

[LvDemWings]

What I want to know is, why has Christianity and its ridiculous allegories survived until the modern era? For that matter, why have ANY of the world's superstitions escaped relegation to myth status? Have the appropriate numbers of centuries simply not passed, yet? And what horrors will replace these dogmas when they finally die, too?

Jane did you ever stop and consider that your views and hatred of all things religious or superstitious, as you call it, are just as fanatical and over the top as those you profess to hate. You come across as obsessed with it. Your anti religious extremism isn't any more healthy than those that rape, murder, or mutilate in the name of or for their religion.

[jane333]

Jane did you ever stop and consider that your views and hatred of all things religious or superstitious, as you call it, are just as fanatical and over the top as those you profess to hate.....

Maybe you would prefer that all secular and rational persons apologize for their defense of the scientific method. Or sweetly nod at expressions of religious bigotry and the acceptance of religious fiction as fact. Though that may be your wish, I can't help you with either.

[Glenn 50]

I am a registered Reverend in the Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic.
..I am also a Master of Nescience from the International University of Nescience.

WARNING

A caution..

This site deals with the doctrine of Apathetic Agnosticism in a combination of total seriousness and sophomoric humour. It is up to you, the visitor, to determine which is which.
http://www.uctaa.net/contents.html

To believe in the existence of a god is an act of faith. To believe in the nonexistence of a god is likewise an act of faith. There is no verifiable evidence that there is a Supreme Being nor is there verifiable evidence there is not a Supreme Being. Faith is not knowledge. We can only state with assurance that we do not know.....

All events in our Universe, including its beginning, can be explained with or without the existence of a Supreme Being. Thus, if there is indeed a God, then that god has had no more impact than no god at all. To all appearances, any purported Supreme Being is indifferent to our Universe and to its inhabitants.
etc etc.

[Samen]

And i thought the woman in the picture was smoking a fat one before the text caught up with me.

[Glenn 50]

Stunned passers-by watched as a scissors-wielding zealot slashed a billboard showing the Virgin Mary clutching a positive pregnancy test yesterday.

The grey-haired man appeared to be alone as he attacked the poster outside the St Matthew-in-the-City church in central Auckland before driving off.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10773887

[JWt]

When I saw the picture I had a totally different take on it. Each pregnant woman faced with challenges and hard "modern" choices could be pregnant with a future "Jesus." Each child is full of possibilities, and she could be like Mary, a vessel for someone special. I saw that picture as being anti-abortion propaganda.

So did I. Then I read a couple of comments and my son walked into the room, so I scrolled up and asked him what he saw. He said the same thing.