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Old 05-08-2009, 09:23 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Ought Six View Post
We are not far behind them.
I would suggest you are already there.

As someone who travels a reasonable amount through many varied countries I am constantly amazed at the level of difficulty one has to conduct oneself in America.

I entirely understand you guys for wanting to keep as much as you can for yourselves.
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:01 PM   #77
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06 said ...
Quote:
How do you explain New Hampshire having a significantly lower death rate than the national average with no seat belt law?
Seat belt usage in NH is in fact higher than some some other states ( 69.2% )
and is only non-compulsory for those 18 years or over .
So it is a misleading statistic .

More meaningful statistics are ...
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) compared the
percentage of unrestrained
passenger vehicle occupant fatalities with overall crash fatalities in each
state for the years 2000-2004.
In states with primary laws on the books not only were fewer people killed
unrestrained, but also the
states' overall vehicle crash fatality rates were lower. In states with primary
enforcement laws rates
were 10.69 per 100,000 people. In states without primary enforcement, the
fatality rate was 13.13 per 100,000 people.
NHTSA estimates 270 lives are saved for every percent increase in seatbelt
usage nationally.
http://www.rmiia.org/Auto/Traffic_Sa...ts_Airbags.htm
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:14 PM   #78
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R:
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"Seat belt usage in NH is in fact higher than some some other states ( 69.2% ) and is only non-compulsory for those 18 years or over . So it is a misleading statistic ."
It is precisely the opposite. It is a most revealing statistic that shows that laws do not work. Education is a much better approach.
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* The only usable tools for these tasks are guns, and thus I have the right to shoot anyone who would take my guns from me.
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:19 PM   #79
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Mass 66%
NH 69.2 % ( + under 18 yrs must wear them )
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:25 PM   #80
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Personally I don't care if you do or don't wear one.

I've scraped up (literally) several people who chose NOT to wear one.

I think anyone is an IDIOT for NOT wearing one.

As long as I don't have to do any of the following, I don't care if you wear one or not:

As long as...

I don't have to pay your medical or rehabilitation costs for a brain injury.
Medicare/MediCal

I don't have to pay for your kid's welfare SSI payments because you are a vegetable and can't work.

I don't have to pay your public safety disability if you're a cop or fireman and stupid enough not to wear a seat belt on duty.

I don't have to pay for your nursing home for the next 30 years because somebody has to spoon feed you.

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Old 05-08-2009, 11:29 PM   #81
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Another point I have to make is that there is an underlying presumption that governmental control over things like this will inevitably lead to further governmental control over other things. I believe Ought termed it earlier as a "slow, inexorable progress towards fascism".

I reject this argument. It is perfectly within reason to believe that the system of checks and balances is capable of allowing a government to exert control over certain things without becoming 'fascist' or authoritarian.

HISTORY would show you to be very, very wrong Bri.

The Democratic or Constitutional Republic forms of government are a historical anomaly.
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:06 AM   #82
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HISTORY would show you to be very, very wrong Bri.

The Democratic or Constitutional Republic forms of government are a historical anomaly.
And the democratic and constitutional forms of government also have longevity and stability greatly in excess of almost every other system, for a reason.

The citizenry in a modern liberal democracy have far more access to information about the actions of their government than in any nation in history. The ability to take their government to task and to raise controversy on government actions is like a pressure valve for government excess.

For all its faults, America is still a nation with far more going for it than almost every nation in history. Most of the rest of the liberal western nations in todays world could be characterized the same way. The balance of legislature and courts curbs the majority of the excesses and will continue to do so. Otherwise your Republic would not have endured for nearly two and a half centuries while other nations rose and fell.
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:21 AM   #83
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Those curbs, checks and balances you speak of are quickly becoming
a thing of the past.

More so every day that passes.

One needs only to look at the historical record, contrasted to the
most recent past.
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:29 AM   #84
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Those curbs, checks and balances you speak of are quickly becoming
a thing of the past.

More so every day that passes.
There's your historical record right there... They've been saying that probably for as long as America's existed, yet it endures.
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Old 05-09-2009, 02:21 AM   #85
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For such a powerful nation, less than 250 years is a pretty short time to be already showing signs of disintigration.
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* I have the right to live, thus I have the right to defend my life from attackers who would take it from me.
* I have the right to my private property, thus I have the right to defend my property from thieves who would take it from me.
* I have the right to self-determination, thus I have the right to defend my liberty from tyrants who would take it from me.
* The only usable tools for these tasks are guns, and thus I have the right to shoot anyone who would take my guns from me.
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Old 05-09-2009, 02:40 AM   #86
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Getting a grip on your hopelessly partisanized mass media would be a nice start, but it would be hard to do so in any way that would be legal... Sadly America's mass-disseminated drivel is making it easier and easier for Americans of both sides to become more extreme and radicalized without any honest questioning of their views. There's no question that America needs more of her unity back.

That said, America has survived worse challenges to her unity in the past, and will probably survive worse ones in the future.
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Old 05-09-2009, 02:54 AM   #87
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Bri:

I think you are looking back with rose-tinted spectacles. America never had any real political unity, nor should it. We always have competing political ideas and ideologies. We come together in times of great adversity, then go right back to squabbling. It has been that way since day one.

America's philosophical diversity is more of a strength than a weakness. Out of the competition of ideas comes innovation.
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* I have the right to live, thus I have the right to defend my life from attackers who would take it from me.
* I have the right to my private property, thus I have the right to defend my property from thieves who would take it from me.
* I have the right to self-determination, thus I have the right to defend my liberty from tyrants who would take it from me.
* The only usable tools for these tasks are guns, and thus I have the right to shoot anyone who would take my guns from me.
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Old 05-09-2009, 03:03 AM   #88
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I would hardly characterize most of the idiocricized punditry seen today as a 'competition of ideas'...
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Old 05-09-2009, 08:04 AM   #89
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Quote:
idiocricized
Is that word in the Canadian Dictionary ?
Dang! if only I had watched more episodes of Sesame Street .


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Old 05-09-2009, 08:31 AM   #90
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Idiocracy (2002) movie

Narrator: As the 21st century began, human evolution was at a turning point. Natural selection, the process by which the strongest, the smartest, the fastest, reproduced in greater numbers than the rest, a process which had once favored the noblest traits of man, now began to favor different traits. Most science fiction of the day predicted a future that was more civilized and more intelligent. But as time went on, things seemed to be heading in the opposite direction. A dumbing down. How did this happen? Evolution does not necessarily reward intelligence. With no natural predators to thin the herd, it began to simply reward those who reproduced the most, and left the intelligent to become an endangered species.
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:01 AM   #91
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So, we've seen that despite NH not requiring seat belt use for adults, we have a higher rate of use than some states where it is mandatory and we have a lower than average death rate on the highways.

Most of us up here like our system as it stands. We don't ask others to pay for accidents that happen here. If you don't have adequate insurance you're pretty much sol around here. And whether or not you have insurance is a personal choice also.

I am a little surprised at how strongly some folks think the government should require seat belt usage by force of law.

I used to make fun of the Free Staters but they are reviving the libertarian philosophy that NH used to be known for but has sadly been losing as more of the Massholes have moved up here. I wish we had more of them.
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:39 AM   #92
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Is that word in the Canadian Dictionary ?
Dang! if only I had watched more episodes of Sesame Street .


.
linttrap nailed it. One of those movies that seems really bloody stupid on the surface, yet more and more brilliant every time you consider its basic premise. It's a phenomenon I have a bit of belief in.
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:21 PM   #93
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They've been saying that probably for as long as America's existed, yet it endures.
Endures in what form and for how long ?

The tilt towards fascism started in earnest in the 1930's and in the past decade somebody has stepped on the accelerator pedal which puts us on a collision course with the guardrail.

And I LIKE a partizan mass media. Unfortunately we don't
have that. We have corporate-owned homogenized media, where the partizan element is nothing more than fake "reality" entertainment.

Homogenization is for milk, not ideas/ideals.

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Old 05-10-2009, 05:06 AM   #94
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Default IThink People Are Missing The Point.

Step back for a minute. The success of the U.S.A. in my opinion is that as it gropes it's way forward like the rest of us, it usually arrives at a right decision eventually - by "right", I mean a decision that strengthens the country. It might take time, but the American system seems to have enough checks and balances in it to avoid the wrong thinking that allows the Hitlers, Stalins, Maos of this world to prevail.

I am not joking, the promoters of these type of fiends exist everywhere, all the time, even in America. America has managed to avoid them.

Part of the success in doing that is avoidance, or exposure, of false arguments and a vital process of debate.

So OK, let N.H do what it wants about seatbelts. But if in future there is incontrovertible evidence that N.h. would be better off with a seatbelt law, then legislate.

To put it another way, most of France's troubles in the last 150 years stem from an emotional attachment to "La Gloire" - atotally unrealistic appraisal of who they were and where they came from that cost them what? Ten million men?

It's all right to push the "rugged indivdualist " myth, but not to the point where it impedes sensible legislation.

All countries have myths (including Australia) don't let them get in the way of sound decisionmaking.
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Old 05-10-2009, 07:55 AM   #95
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Quote:
So OK, let N.H do what it wants about seatbelts.
I think that's what we have in mind, thank you.

Quote:
But if in future there is incontrovertible evidence that N.h. would be better off with a seatbelt law, then legislate.
Better off in what way? Better off because we get the $3 million from the feds? Better off because of the revenue the fines will bring in? Better off because it gives one more reason for the police to inject themselves into your life? Better off because one more area of personal responsibility has been taken over by the government?

How much of your freedom to make your own decisions are you willing to give up to achieve a little safety? Everyone must find their own level.

The thing with not having a seat belt law is no one loses any rights. If you want to wear your seat belt that's fine. Everyone gets to chose.

The problem with having a seat belt law is that some folks don't get to make the choice for themselves any more.

Seat belt usage is a small point really, but it feels good to try and make a stand on all sorts of issues, even if the issues are small.

Quote:
It's all right to push the "rugged indivdualist " myth, but not to the point where it impedes sensible legislation.
Your idea of sensible or mine?
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Old 05-10-2009, 06:53 PM   #96
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Perhaps the insurance industry will force it on you. The hip pocket nerve approach seems to work well.
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Old 05-11-2009, 01:03 AM   #97
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Perhaps the insurance industry will force it on you. The hip pocket nerve approach seems to work well.
Aaah, so the take-away from your argument is your universal desire to use force to compel compliance to what YOU think is the right thing to do.

Now we understand.

The end justifies the means.
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Old 05-11-2009, 02:37 AM   #98
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BG: Do you know what that little "UL" trademark means? It means that if you want product liability insurance then you had better comply with underwriters laboratory requirements for your product or else.... And the writ of that organisation extends all the way down to the adhesive holding the "UL Approved" label on your product. I ran a company that had a nice little money earner out of being a UL approved source for stuff.

What I said was that the insurance industry may decide to compel N.H. drivers to wear seatbelts, and they have a very long track record of doing exactly that. Take for example Global warming. It won't be the green groups who will pressure Government into finally doing something, it will be the insurance companies and banks deciding that they aren't prepared to lend or insure coastal property.

As for me, all I did was point to the mountain of safety data that proves it is common sense to wear a seatbelt and to the cost to the community of the idiots who don't.

Following the thoughts of some folk here if a person is determined to not be wearing a seatbelt in an accident then they should just be left by the side of the raod to die, I mean, If you won't take a simple step to protect yourself, why should the community spend one red cent to help you?
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:50 AM   #99
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BG: Do you know what that little "UL" trademark means? It means that if you want product liability insurance then you had better comply with underwriters laboratory requirements for your product or else.... And the writ of that organisation extends all the way down to the adhesive holding the "UL Approved" label on your product. I ran a company that had a nice little money earner out of being a UL approved source for stuff.

What I said was that the insurance industry may decide to compel N.H. drivers to wear seatbelts, and they have a very long track record of doing exactly that. Take for example Global warming. It won't be the green groups who will pressure Government into finally doing something, it will be the insurance companies and banks deciding that they aren't prepared to lend or insure coastal property.

As for me, all I did was point to the mountain of safety data that proves it is common sense to wear a seatbelt and to the cost to the community of the idiots who don't.

Following the thoughts of some folk here if a person is determined to not be wearing a seatbelt in an accident then they should just be left by the side of the raod to die, I mean, If you won't take a simple step to protect yourself, why should the community spend one red cent to help you?
The problem with that logic is that the not wearing of the seatbelt is not the compelling cause of a fatal or debilitating injury.It was the infraction that preceded it.Just getting behind the wheel of a vehicle is a potential hazzard.Furthermore there are many cases where it wouldn't make any difference whether a seatbelt was worn or not.Some include being wishboned by a semi or train and another is plunging off a steep mountain roadway.There also has to exist the possibility in some cases where a person could be inadvertedly trapped in a burning vehicle or stalled situation where wearing one could even cause a severe injury or death.Therefore, the seatbelt issue is not one that is cut and dry case for universal safety.

Now with that said I am fully aware that there are undoubtably more cases where wearing one in a potential ejection or impact case would increase the survival rate of the occupant.The issue that is at odds here is how far can this self endangering case be taken.I mean if goverment is so concerned ,as they publically claim to be ,with regards to ones well being and safety in vehicles,where is the consistency in logic when it comes to riding a motorcycle (which I do by the way)and leaving it up to me, in most states ,whether I choose to wear a helmet , when data clearly shows that most motorcycle crash incidents result in head trauma?Seatbelts for motorcycles is not even a viable option. Fact is ,after many years my state finally invoked a helmet law only to have it overturned several years ago.Why? Well everyone can draw there own conclusions on that ranging from restoring ones rights to babyboomer lobbyists coming of age and riding Harleys,which by the way,has a lot cooler visual rebel image if ones head is exposed,or so I've come to deduce.Many bikers will say that it's a peripheral vision thing.Whatever.

Now all of that out of the way,I don't have a problem with requiring me to insure my juvenile occupants are seatbelted ,but myself motoring solo I tend to take issue with.Particularly when local law enforcement goes on their annual 'click it or ticket' under freeway turn-around ambush crusade.

IMO the entire seatbelt issue was and is a revenue driven mandate that is perpetuated by a false concern for my and your safety.What's next....matches that won't strike? Requiring floatation devices while swimming?

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Old 05-11-2009, 09:38 AM   #100
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As for me, all I did was point to the mountain of safety data that proves it is common sense to wear a seatbelt and to the cost to the community of the idiots who don't.
I haven't seen any evidence of the cost to the community posted by you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frodo
Perhaps the insurance industry will force it on you. The hip pocket nerve approach seems to work well.
What makes you think they haven't already tried? We might be paying a premium due to the lack of a seat belt law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ob1
IMO the entire seatbelt issue was and is a revenue driven mandate that is perpetuated by a false concern for my and your safety.
I agree.
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