VP Debate Thread

[gsgs]

Obama up 1.3 at intrade, McCain down 1.1 , still the contract
"Obama increases more than McCain after the VP-debate"
is down from >60 to just 5

[Flint]

Here is an article about the facts. Useful to compare this with less, uh, accurate representations:

PALIN: Said of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama: "94 times he voted to increase taxes or not support a tax reduction."

THE FACTS: The dubious count includes repetitive votes as well as votes to cut taxes for the middle class while raising them on the rich. An analysis by factcheck.org found that 23 of the votes were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all, seven were in favor of measures that would have lowered taxes for many, 11 would have increased taxes on only those making more than $1 million a year.

___

BIDEN: Complained about "economic policies of the last eight years" that led to "excessive deregulation."

THE FACTS: Biden voted for 1999 deregulation that liberal groups are blaming for part of the financial crisis today. The law allowed Wall Street investment banks to create the kind of mortgage-related securities at the core of the problem now. The law was widely backed by Republicans as well as by Democratic President Clinton, who argues it has stopped the crisis today from being worse.

___

PALIN: "Two years ago, remember, it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures. He sounded that warning bell."

THE FACTS: Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska led an effort in 2005 to tighten regulation on the mortgage underwriters — McCain joined as a co-sponsor a year later. The legislation was never taken up by the full Senate, then under Republican control.

___

BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company."

THE FACTS: Of course it would, because it's meant to pay for insurance. That's like saying money for a car loan will go straight to the car dealer.

___

PALIN: Claimed she has taken on the oil industry as Alaska governor.

THE FACTS: Palin pushed to impose a windfall profits tax on oil companies and distributed the proceeds to the state's citizens to offset rising energy costs. However, she has also sided with the industry on a number of issues. She sued the Interior Department over its designation of polar bears as an endangered species. That puts her on the same side as the American Petroleum Institute, the oil industry's chief trade association. She also supports the industry's desire to drill in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge — a position at odds with McCain.

___

BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."

THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.

___

PALIN: Said the United States has reduced its troop level in Iraq to a number below where it was when the troop increase began in early 2007.

THE FACTS: Not correct. The Pentagon says there are currently 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about 17,000 more than there were before the 2007 military buildup began.

___

BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry — deregulate it and let the free market move — like he did for the banking industry."

THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health insurance across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."

___

PALIN: Said Alaska is "building a nearly $40 billion natural gas pipeline, which is North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets."

THE FACTS: Not quite. Construction is at least six years away. So far the state has only awarded a license to Trans Canada Corp., that comes with $500 million in seed money in exchange for commitments toward a lengthy and costly process to getting a federal certificate. At an August news conference after the state Legislature approved the license, Palin said, "It's not a done deal."

___

PALIN: "Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year."

BIDEN: "The charge is absolutely not true. Barack Obama did not vote to raise taxes. The vote she's referring to, John McCain voted the exact same way."

THE FACTS: The vote was on a nonbinding budget resolution that assumed that President Bush's tax cuts would expire, as scheduled, in 2011. If that actually happened, it could mean higher taxes for people making as little as about $42,000. But Obama is proposing tax increases only on the wealthy, and would cut taxes for most others. In the March 14 budget resolution supported by Obama and Biden, McCain actually did not vote.

Golly, sounds like both sides flavored the facts (or made them up) to suit their arguments.

[Flint]

I especially loved Ruben Navarette's take on the debate. His argument is:

1) Everyone saw the person they wanted to win as being the winner
2) That means it was a tie
3) A tie means Palin wins!

What a fine analysis.

[gsgs]

shall they both present their version of the next budget now.


----edit1----------

where is Palin's,Biden's internet page where they continue the debate ?
No reason to stop now. We want to know, what they think after carefully
examining their replies and those of the opponent and the comments
from the press.
Without the pressure from the ticking clock.
With the chance to look up things and include hyperlinks in their statements.

why restrict on a 2nd class life debate, when we have much better technical possibilities ?

[MomCares]

Originally Posted by Coyote

I was listening on radio. Someone please tell me she didn't wink at the camera!

Originally Posted by freeranger

Reuters pressing to have Palin’s ears checked for secret radios

It makes me chuckle to think that anyone who heard her canned non-answers could think she had any real-time help.


MomCares

[caonacl]

[Blackrock]

From the debate last night, did anyone else catch this little tidbit....about how we're being assisted by the "Talibani"?

This following is a quote, from Palin's rebuttal to G. Iffel's question:
"You both have sons who are in Iraq or on their way to Iraq. You, Gov. Palin, have said that you would like to see a real clear plan for an exit strategy. What should that be, Governor?"
Palin responded, Biden rebutted, and then Gwen offered the Governor a rebuttal to the rebuttal....:

"...We'll know when we're finished in Iraq when the Iraqi government can govern its people and when the Iraqi security forces can secure its people. And our commanders on the ground will tell us when those conditions have been met. And Maliki and Talabani also in working with us are knowing again that we are getting closer and closer to that point, that victory that's within sight."

Yes - read it again - we are working WITH "Maliki" AND the TALIBANI.

Even "Joe six-pack" knows better than that!

She's a very, very scary stepford person....

[flourbug]

Jalal Talabani is the President of Iraq.

[Blackrock]

Thanks, my bad. The sentence was so disjointed, and so much had been thrown in, that I heard/read "Talibani" as Taliban.

Appreciate the clarification FB!
: )

[flourbug]

I hear ya. I'm the Queen of Misreading, though my eyes seem to like to turn innocent words into the obscene.

[Potemkin]

Originally Posted by Flint

I especially loved Ruben Navarette's take on the debate. His argument is:

1) Everyone saw the person they wanted to win as being the winner
2) That means it was a tie
3) A tie means Palin wins!

What a fine analysis.

I almost posted it but somehow, I knew in advance you would rip on it because it wasn't "Biden" enough and would misrepresent what he said.

Sure enough you took it out of context.

Wouldn't it be better to post the article in its entirety?


http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/...rrette.debate/

Commentary: For Palin, a tie is a win

* Story Highlights
* Ruben Navarrette: Palin was able to equal Joe Biden's debate performance
* Democrats went into debate thinking it would be easy to defeat Palin, he says
* Navarrette: Palin highlighted cases where Biden has differed with Obama
* She proved to be a natural communicator, like Reagan and Bill Clinton, he says
* Next Article in Politics »

By Ruben Navarrette Jr.
Special to CNN
Decrease font Decrease font
Enlarge font Enlarge font

Editor's note: Ruben Navarrette is a nationally syndicated columnist and a member of the editorial board of the San Diego Union-Tribune. Read his column here


SAN DIEGO, California (CNN) -- Tie goes to the hockey mom.

Who won last night's vice presidential debate? The answer depends on which ticket you support. If you like Obama-Biden, then Joe Biden won.

If you prefer McCain-Palin, Sarah Palin did. That's how you can tell a tie. That's what this was. And since Biden was supposed to destroy Palin, and didn't even come close, this was a good night for the Republican.

It is Sarah Palin's world, Joe Biden just lives in it. Viewers tuned in to see Palin either fall flat, or flatten her opponent.

It makes sense. Palin is one of the most exciting, but also divisive, figures in this campaign. The other is Barack Obama. If anything, there have been moments when I thought that John McCain and Joe Biden were drags on their respective tickets -- like during the debates.

In the middle of last week, McCain won leadership accolades with his march to Capitol Hill to try to alleviate the economic crisis.

But, at week's end, he lost his match-up with Obama. McCain was rude, condescending and dismissive. He wouldn't so much as address his opponent directly or look him in the eye -- not even when moderator PBS' Jim Lehrer asked him to.

Last night, Biden started out making the same mistake. At one annoying moment, the Democrat even instructed the moderator, PBS' Gwen Ifill, that Palin hadn't answered a question. He could have said that directly to Palin, but, in a McCainesque moment, he ignored her.

Biden caught himself later when Palin -- in her best line -- informed him and Ifill that she was going to speak straight to the American people even if it meant not answering questions the way that he or Ifill wanted her to.

After that, Biden too tried to look into the camera and speak directly to Americans. It was new to him, but he took to it well.

Palin later said that she feels most comfortable bypassing the filter of the mainstream media and connecting with voters directly.

Can't say I blame her after her interviews with CBS' Katie Couric. All week, the consensus among pundits, bloggers, and other know-it-alls was that Palin was out of her depth and, in the words of conservative Dallas Morning News columnist Rod Dreher, "an empty pantsuit."

Other conservatives, such as syndicated columnist Kathleen Parker, deserted the ship altogether, and suggested McCain dump Palin.

See what kind of trouble you can get into when you're not able to -- gasp -- name your least favorite Supreme Court decisions?

I listened to the debate on the radio before watching a recording of it on television later. I thought Palin did a great job of softening up Biden, even using Obama as a club to beat up his running mate whenever she pointed out some instance where Biden and Obama disagreed, and where she thought Biden was right and Obama was wrong. There was no knockout. But Palin has a good jab.

Later, when I saw the debate on television, I was even more impressed. Palin loves the camera, and it loves her back. This is her medium, and debates are her forum. She's a natural communicator, cut of the same cloth as Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton.

Who would have thought it?

As the debate wrapped up, I was pulling into a parking lot for an evening speech to a local Democratic club. The person who greeted me shook his head and suggested that Palin had faked-out her critics by weaving a caricature of an airhead. Then, underestimated, the lipstick-wearing pit bull mauled poor Joe Biden.

Could be. The conversation brought to mind the classic film, "The Hustler." The late Paul Newman pretends to be dreadful at pool, and then, with his mark on the hook, clears the table.

Don't look now, Democrats. But you've been hustled.

[MomCares]

It's nice that Navarrette has an opinion, but it isn't shared by many...


Polls say Biden won debate
Updated: 10/03/2008 07:41 AM
By: Web Staff
http://news10now.com/content/politic...e/Default.aspx


U.S. -- While it's always difficult to say who wins a debate some polls suggest while many Americans think Sarah Palin passed an important test, Joe Biden came out on top.

A CBS News/Knowledge Networks Poll of uncommitted voters said 46 percent thought Joe Biden won with 21 percent siding with Sarah Palin. A CNN poll found Biden the winner by a 51 percent to 39 percent margin.

[MomCares]

A bit more detail (FWIW, these were "real" polls, not internet polls)...

Polls: Biden won debate, though Palin did well
By DAVID LIGHTMAN
McClatchy Newspapers
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/poli...ry/712229.html

ST. LOUIS, Mo. -- Joe Biden won Thursday night's vice presidential debate, according to two national polls, giving the Democrats fresh, important momentum Friday as the campaign for the White House enters its final month.

A CBS News/Knowledge Networks survey of 500 uncommitted voters taken after the debate Thursday night found that 46 percent thought Biden won, while 21 percent gave Republican Sarah Palin the victory. While two-thirds found Palin knowledgeable about important issues, 98 percent said the same about Biden.

A separate CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey found similar views, with 51 percent saying Biden did better, to 36 percent favoring Palin.

Perhaps most significant, the CNN survey found that 87 percent thought the Delaware senator was qualified to be president, while 42 percent saw Palin that way.

"He didn't ramble and he wasn't patronizing. He stayed on message and linked McCain to President Bush in a very effective way," said Douglas Koopman, a professor of political science at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Mich.

Particularly impressive, Koopman said, was how Biden dealt with Palin's repeated reference to John McCain as a "maverick."

"I love him," Biden said of McCain, his longtime Senate colleague. "He's been a maverick on some issues, but he has been no maverick on the things that matter to people's lives," such as the economy, health care and education.

Even so, reviews for Palin, whose approval numbers had been tumbling in recent weeks, were generally favorable too.

"Had Palin blown it, it probably would have been the end of McCain's candidacy, but she dug in her heels and enhanced her credibility," said Wayne Lesperance, associate professor of political science at New England College in Henniker, N.H.

But at this stage of the campaign, with Americans weary of war and anxious about the declining economy, the Republican ticket faces a hostile environment since it represents the incumbent party at a time when voters are seeking change. Palin had to do more than merely hold her own to shift the campaign's overall dynamic. But there's no evidence she did that, even if she exceeded expectations for her performance.

Obama led by an average of 5.8 points in national surveys over the past week before the Biden-Palin debate, according to RealClearPolitics.

"Every day that goes by with Barack Obama about 5 to 8 points ahead is not a good day for John McCain," said vice presidential expert Timothy Walch.

"Every day of the next month is important," said Obama campaign manager David Plouffe.

Nevertheless, Republicans claimed new momentum.

Palin, who has been unavailable to most of the press corps ever since she joined the GOP ticket, will "be available to the press, and she'll talk to every American voter. She'll be out 24/7," vowed McCain senior adviser Steve Schmidt.

Some experts agreed that Palin's folksy style could resonate, particularly with women in the Midwest and West, a trend that may not show up right away.

"People listen to what the neighbors say, what their favorite pundit says and sometimes there's a disconnect between that and what the media are saying now," said Wayne Fields, a professor of English and American culture studies at Washington University in St. Louis.

Ultimately, he said, people base their opinions on their intuition, and "they really don't know specifically what they're basing their judgment on."

Yet Palin probably won't have much more opportunity to be widely heard. Public attention tends to focus most on presidential candidates, especially in the final weeks of a campaign, and there are no more vice presidential debates. With a crush of other big news stories - including the House of Representatives' passage of the financial-rescue plan on Friday and the second McCain-Obama debate coming up on Tuesday - the Biden-Palin encounter is likely to fade quickly.

"The vice presidential story is essentially over now," Walch said. "By Monday, we'll be on to another topic."

Biden was in Dover, Del., on Friday, saying goodbye to his son, Beau, who is Delaware's attorney general. Beau Biden's National Guard unit headed to Texas Friday to train for deployment to Iraq. Palin was in Dallas for two private campaign events.

[caonacl]

On CNN Reliable Sources, the Republican spinner is saying that Sarah Palin is challenging Joe Biden to another debate.

[Fiddlerdave]

Originally Posted by MomCares

It makes me chuckle to think that anyone who heard her canned non-answers could think she had any real-time help.


MomCares

Truly. Palin says she reads ALL the papers (even though, oddly enough, she can't name ONE ), so how can anyone think she needs help?

Her own words,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRkWebP2Q0Y

[Greta]

Here is the Saturday Night Live version of the VP debate. Sometimes I just have to laugh.

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Li...-biden/727421/