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Old 01-24-2012, 01:09 AM   #1
Ought Six
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Arrow The sap

You cannot truly appreciate the value of the sap until you have hefted and played with one. The sap is a leather handle with a tip filled with a lead tablet, lead shot, lead-infused clay or powdered lead. Its grip is meant to be firmly grasped while striking with the heavy tip. Its tip may be flat, flat with a rounded protrusion, or entirely round.

The sap is a traditional non-lethal weapon of law enforcement, however the sap can easily be used to kill by simply striking the side or top of the head with sufficient force to cause a fatal depressed skull fracture, which pushes broken bone shards of the skull into the brain. A sufficiently powerful strike to other vulnerable areas such as the throat or side of the neck could easily be fatal as well. The sap is a quite flexible and effective striking weapon, like the baton, but far more compact and concealable. Perhaps the best feature of this weapon is that just about anyone can use it effectively with the most rudimentary instruction. The sap in no way requires great skill or strength to be a serious weapon.

A flat sap offers excellent flexibility, as do most club-type weapons. The flat side can be used as a 'slap' to stun an opponent with a blow to the side of the head. The favored target is behind the ear, the thickest bone in the human body. This spot can sustain a very heavy impact without bone fracture that will transmit sufficient force to the brain to cause brain shock and a temporary lockup of the entire nervous system, the same as a boxer's knockout blow. In a more desperate encounter, a blow from a sap can break a jaw, wrist, rib, knee or most any other exposed bony structure. A blow with the edge of the sap to a major muscle group will paralyze the entire area or appendage. This is extremely useful in controlling violent suspects. A hard blow to the bicep will paralyze the entire arm, causing a suspect to drop the weapon they have clenched in their hand. A stiff blow to the thigh will bring them down to one knee, preventing their flight from the scene.

The sap can be used for more debilitating blows in a fight with an armed opponent. A strike to the kneecap will crush it. A blow to the larnx will be fatal without an immediate tracheotomy. A hard blow to the temple is likely to be fatal, or leave the assailant a vegetable. A hard strike to the solar plexus can actually stop the heart. A hard strike to the abdomen can rupture internal organs.

The sap is one of the most effective and underrated weapons on the planet. Sadly, it is illegal in almost every state in the union, as LEOs understood its extreme effectiveness and wished to reserve its use exclusively to themselves, and thus influenced lawmakers to have it outlawed for civilian use. But in most places, it is legal to own so long as you keep it at home and do not carry it. I strongly recommend getting at least one good flat sap, should it be legal in your area, and adding it to your preps. Even better, get a few of various configurations; big flat ones, and small, more concealable cylindrical ones. They are a fearsome weapon against miscreants, and should have an honored place in your arsenal to be carried in extreme times.

Flat saps:





^^^ I really like this design ^^^


Round sap:




Sap band with studded knuckles:




Sap gloves, with powdered lead-filled knuckles:




This is what mine looks like (head is filled with lead tablet):



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* I have the right to my private property, thus I have the right to defend my property from thieves who would take it from me.
* I have the right to self-determination, thus I have the right to defend my liberty from tyrants who would take it from me.
* The only usable tools for these tasks are guns, and thus I have the right to shoot anyone who would take my guns from me.

Last edited by Ought Six; 01-24-2012 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:40 AM   #2
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Wow! This one.....





.... is a coin purse, meaning that it is perfectly legal to carry in all fifty states. Just load it up with change, and you are ready to defend. Awesome! I am ordering one tomorrow.

http://bigstickcombat.wordpress.com/tag/sap/
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:47 AM   #3
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I am not convinced it would not burst on striking a hard object .

Serious testing and independent reviews available ??????????????

I would buy one also if convinced it will not burst.
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:35 AM   #4
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Somewhere I have a sap that is like the one in the picture with the hand holding it. My grandpa was a member of a civilian police force during the deppression and the sap was his.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:15 PM   #5
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Hey, you anticipated my first thought: Yep, like the handy ASP telescoping baton, they made it illegal for all except the elite. So my first thought was "How do I get a sap that does not appear to be a weapon?" (I can't carry the ASP baton, but I can use a cane or carry a Maglite.)

That coinpurse sap concept is interesting. There are improvised weapons of course, a heavy object in a sock, billiard ball in a bar rag in a Steven Seagal movie, etc. But what looks like a legit everyday item and still functions as a sap? Hmm.....????
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:26 PM   #6
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I have an ancient one my grandfather carried back in the 30's for uncooperative roughnecks and drunks. Would not want to be smacked with it.

In Nicaragua almost every male expat you see has an asp on their belt and the locals treat the noise of them extending like it was the hand of god readying to smite them.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:54 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by rryan View Post
I have an ancient one my grandfather carried back in the 30's for uncooperative roughnecks and drunks. Would not want to be smacked with it.
Check the stitching on it to make sure it is still sound before you carry it. It is great to have a piece of functional family history.
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Quote:
In Nicaragua almost every male expat you see has an asp on their belt and the locals treat the noise of them extending like it was the hand of god readying to smite them.
I got an extra Shrade expandable baton and a Maxpedition belt holster for the next time I visit Panama.

---------- Post added at 10:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross View Post
I am not convinced it would not burst on striking a hard object .

Serious testing and independent reviews available ??????????????

I would buy one also if convinced it will not burst.
I will let you know how mine works out after I get it.

---------- Post added at 10:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feather View Post
Somewhere I have a sap that is like the one in the picture with the hand holding it. My grandpa was a member of a civilian police force during the deppression and the sap was his.
If you are talking about the bottom picture in the first post, that is my hand holding my sap. I really like it. It will serve you well, if needed. As I said to RR, check the stitching to insure that it is still sound.
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* I have the right to live, thus I have the right to defend my life from attackers who would take it from me.
* I have the right to my private property, thus I have the right to defend my property from thieves who would take it from me.
* I have the right to self-determination, thus I have the right to defend my liberty from tyrants who would take it from me.
* The only usable tools for these tasks are guns, and thus I have the right to shoot anyone who would take my guns from me.

Last edited by Ought Six; 01-24-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
the sap can easily be used to kill by simply striking the side or top of the head with sufficient force to cause a fatal depressed skull fracture, which pushes broken bone shards of the skull into the brain.
The skull does not tend to "splinter"; "shards" are generally not pushed into the tissue of the brain by blunt trauma. Skull fractures generally kill by causing lacerations to the veins (subdural hematoma, relatively slow) or arteries (epidural hematoma, relatively fast) surrounding the brain.

In neither case does there tend to be immediate unconsciousness; rapid loss of consciousness associated with a head injury (short of massive trauma which destroys the brain) is caused by disruption of function of the reticular activating system, the structure in the brain that literally keeps you awake.

Quote:
The favored target is behind the ear, the thickest bone in the human body. This spot can sustain a very heavy impact without bone fracture
Depending on how you measure thickness, the thickest bone in the human body is pelvis or femur. Retroauricular (mastoid) bone is thick, but very porous (the mastoid air cells and auditory apparatus). The reason this is a favored spot for disabling blows is its relative proximity to the aforementioned reticular activating system (RAS), but the difference between a disabling blow and a fatal blow is small. You really do not want to hit anyone here unless you're willing to risk killing him.

The strong, thick bone in the skull is the frontal bone (forehead), which is why head butts work so well.

Quote:
A hard strike to the solar plexus can actually stop the heart.
I think not; even direct cardiac concussion/contusion will almost never result in dysrhythmia/arrhythmia, and I can think of no mechanism by which celiac (AKA solar) plexus disruption would do so. I find several of the other claims similarly doubtful. Not to say it's not a good weapon in the hands of an expert, but ...
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:00 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by dharma View Post
The skull does not tend to "splinter"; "shards" are generally not pushed into the tissue of the brain by blunt trauma. Skull fractures generally kill by causing lacerations to the veins (subdural hematoma, relatively slow) or arteries (epidural hematoma, relatively fast) surrounding the brain.

In neither case does there tend to be immediate unconsciousness; rapid loss of consciousness associated with a head injury (short of massive trauma which destroys the brain) is caused by disruption of function of the reticular activating system, the structure in the brain that literally keeps you awake.


Depending on how you measure thickness, the thickest bone in the human body is pelvis or femur. Retroauricular (mastoid) bone is thick, but very porous (the mastoid air cells and auditory apparatus). The reason this is a favored spot for disabling blows is its relative proximity to the aforementioned reticular activating system (RAS), but the difference between a disabling blow and a fatal blow is small. You really do not want to hit anyone here unless you're willing to risk killing him.

The strong, thick bone in the skull is the frontal bone (forehead), which is why head butts work so well.
Thanks for the corrections.
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I think not; even direct cardiac concussion/contusion will almost never result in dysrhythmia/arrhythmia, and I can think of no mechanism by which celiac (AKA solar) plexus disruption would do so.
Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commotio_cordis

There have been cases in bare-knuckle boxing and martial arts where a blow directly over the heart was fatal. In the Japanese art of ninjitsu, there is a punch specifically designed to achieve this very thing; stopping the heart with a single extremely powerful blow right over the heart. It has worked for a few centuries, according to written histories by ninjitsu masters of the past. The punch must be powerful enough to deflect the chest wall at least two inches inwards to transmit a physical blow to the heart itself. A full-power swing with your entire arm with a several ounce hunk of lead at the end has sufficient force to do so. This makes sense, as striking the chest very hard over the heart can 'restart' a heart (actually, restore normal rhythm) by shocking its nerve plexus that controls the beating of the heart. The idea that a similar blow could fatally disrupt normal rhythm is not exactly far-fetched.

Here is a study describing this effect:

Viano, DC.; Lau, IV. (1988). "A viscous tolerance criterion for soft tissue injury assessment.". J Biomech 21 (5): 387–99. PMID 3417691.
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Quote:
I find several of the other claims similarly doubtful. Not to say it's not a good weapon in the hands of an expert, but ...
The fact that a powerful blow to the bicep will temporarily paralyze the arm is one I can personally attest to. I got whacked on the bicep by a staff in an Aikido class once, and the arm was useless for several minutes. With striking weapons in any number of martial arts, this is not only well known, it is a standard move is to target the bicep to disarm opponents.

And as I said, the sap does not require expertise. History shows that with minimal instruction, it is extremely effective.
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* I have the right to live, thus I have the right to defend my life from attackers who would take it from me.
* I have the right to my private property, thus I have the right to defend my property from thieves who would take it from me.
* I have the right to self-determination, thus I have the right to defend my liberty from tyrants who would take it from me.
* The only usable tools for these tasks are guns, and thus I have the right to shoot anyone who would take my guns from me.

Last edited by Ought Six; 01-24-2012 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:02 PM   #10
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Dharma---this is off topic but I think you can elaborate on this

My Dad taught me how to box (and generally defend myself) at an early age but one thing he constantly drilled into me was to try to hit between the eye and ear (side of forehead) to end fights. In the course of being in way too many altercations I can say it works---as in target instantly unconscious several times I can remember.

Is this causing that same nerve thing you mention above?
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:18 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
Commotio_cordis
Yes; as I said, it's rare, which is why, when it occurs, say, on a baseball field, it makes the news. But that is certainly not the same as a blow to the celiac plexus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
This makes sense, as striking the chest very hard over the heart can 'restart' a heart (actually, restore normal rhythm) by shocking its nerve plexus
Oh, not really. That delivers about 6-7 joules of energy to the heart at most, which is pretty ineffective, and why we don't teach the precordial thump in ACLS anymore. Even if it worked, it would have to happen at precisely the right time in the cardiac cycle to disrupt cardiac rhythm, which, again, is very rare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rryan
Is this causing that same nerve thing you mention above?
Yup. The reticular activating system is in the midbrain/brainstem (in the center of the head roughly between your ears). Head trauma is associated with force transmitted to this area, and the shorter the path, the more efficiently disruption occurs (and, the bone there is pretty thin). Trauma to any area of the head can cause unconsciousness, of course, but some blows are more effective than others. Interestingly, blows to the chin result in force transmitted via the mandible to the same area, which is why you can knock someone out by hitting him there and why blows to, say, the forehead, aren't as effective.

Last edited by dharma; 01-24-2012 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:24 PM   #12
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Yes; as I said, it's rare, which is why, when it occurs, say, on a baseball field, it makes the news. But that is certainly not the same as a blow to the celiac plexus.
It is rare as an accidental event. That does not change the fact that if you specifically cause that event in the correct manner, it works. There is a documentary on The National Geographic Channel called 'Fight Science' where they had a research doctor who specializes in trauma explain the mechanism of 'the ninja death punch'. They set up an anatomically correct and fully instrumented test dummy and had a ninja master perform this strike. Their analysis confirmed that the practitioner was, in fact, able to deliver enough power and chest deflection in the right spot to fatally stop the heart.
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* The only usable tools for these tasks are guns, and thus I have the right to shoot anyone who would take my guns from me.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:26 PM   #13
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Please see my edited post.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:39 PM   #14
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See my edited post as well.
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* I have the right to live, thus I have the right to defend my life from attackers who would take it from me.
* I have the right to my private property, thus I have the right to defend my property from thieves who would take it from me.
* I have the right to self-determination, thus I have the right to defend my liberty from tyrants who would take it from me.
* The only usable tools for these tasks are guns, and thus I have the right to shoot anyone who would take my guns from me.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:52 PM   #15
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The 'ninja death punch' segment starts around three minutes.




While the program is rather overdramatized, the science behind it is apparently sound.
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Old 01-24-2012, 04:40 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
While the program is rather overdramatized, the science behind it is apparently sound.
No, I'm afraid it's not. They're talking about mechanical disruption ("damage to soft tissue", as they put it), which is not the same as the mechanically generated pulse of electricity which results in commotio cordis. That side fist blow he's using is almost the same as the precordial thump we used to teach for use in CPR (though admittedly more powerful), and it's been plainly proven to be ineffective.

I actually thought you were going to reference the figures for energy associated with blunt trauma to the chest given in the Wiki article (Rocky Marciano could punch!), and have been trying to think of a good way to explain this.

I haven't really come up with one, but, in any case, the mechanism for cardiac arrest in blunt chest trauma is this: a blow to the precordium results in deformation of the chest wall. That mechanical deformation of the chest wall results in generation of an electrical pulse. That electrical pulse, delivered to the heart at precisely the right moment (see diagram in Wiki article, see also http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic...n-T+phenomenon) can result in disruption of normal cardiac rhythm.

Note that this is specifically NOT what I was taught in tae kwan do—that a powerful blow delivered at the right time could "burst" the heart—and likewise not what the pseudo-science in the video is purporting to demonstrate. The heart is very tough indeed, and a blow powerful enough to cause mechanical (not electrical) disruption would cause fatal injury to multiple other structures first.

In any case, a sufficiently powerful and focused blow, delivered to an appropriately vulnerable subject—say, a skinny-chested adolescent struck by a batted ball—can rarely cause cardiac arrest. A blow from a sap to the chest of an adult male, even assuming the assailant knows where the heart is (hint: the "ninja" in the video is a good 10 cm. low)? Nah. Zero probability for all practical purposes.

This is not the blow to the "solar plexus" initially referenced, either. That will not cause cardiac arrest, though the victim is likely to have some trouble breathing for a while.

Last edited by dharma; 01-24-2012 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Misspelling. Damn autocorrect.
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:08 PM   #17
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You seem fixated on young people here. The demonstration clearly showed that a sufficiently powerful blow can deflect the chest wall inward far enough for it to directly contact and transmit force to the heart itself, in an adult. That dispenses with the 'young person' meme, leaving only two questions; can this kind of blow damage the heart enough to be fatal, and can a full-power swing to the chest with a sap deliver enough force to cause the necessary 2" of inward chest wall deflection? I believe the answer to the latter question is 'yes', having tried full-power strikes with my sap on hard objects. Testing or real-world data would be required to verify that conclusively, but I am confident that the tremendous power a full-size sap delivers is up to the task.

As for the first question, electrical disruption is not the only possible mechanism for damaging the heart. Bruising the heart can cause cardiac tamponade, as you know. Aortic tears require a huge amount of force, and that seems unlikely. So in your experience, what level of force is required to cause heart bruising? A heavy sap blow is about analogous to a full-power baseball bat blow. Strong enough to cause that sort of trauma?
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* I have the right to live, thus I have the right to defend my life from attackers who would take it from me.
* I have the right to my private property, thus I have the right to defend my property from thieves who would take it from me.
* I have the right to self-determination, thus I have the right to defend my liberty from tyrants who would take it from me.
* The only usable tools for these tasks are guns, and thus I have the right to shoot anyone who would take my guns from me.
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:40 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
You seem fixated on young people here.
They're the ones who die of commotio cordis, and for good anatomic and situational reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
The demonstration clearly showed that a sufficiently powerful blow can deflect the chest wall inward far enough for it to directly contact and transmit force to the heart itself
I can do that just by pushing on you, but it won't kill you. Good CPR requires 5 cm. (2") of chest wall motion and routinely breaks ribs. But it won't cause (or cure) cardiac arrest.

I'm obviously having trouble getting this point across: commotio cords ia an electrical phenomenon, not a mechanical one. Transmission of mechanical force to the heart will not cause cardiac arrest. It is the electrical current caused by that chest wall deformation that causes cardiac arrest. Does this improve your understanding of the physiology? I'll try again, if not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
necessary 2" of inward chest wall deflection
Meaningless in and of itself. Please feel free to show me a reference for this as being an important criterion. That video doesn't count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
electrical disruption is not the only possible mechanism for damaging the heart
Mmmmm . . . duh? We weren't talking about damaging the heart. We were talking about the induction of cardiac arrest. Reference your own article. That being said, injury to the heart is rare with blunt trauma (not so much if a knife or gun is involved).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
Bruising the heart can cause cardiac tamponade
Rarely, and it's generally very slow; injury to small vessels causes "weeping". Penetrating trauma causes tamponade frequently, but that's not what we are discussing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
Aortic tears require a huge amount of force, and that seems unlikely.
On the contrary, this is the most frequent cause of death referable to the cardiovascular system in blunt chest trauma (not the most frequent cause of BCT death, period, which I believe is tension pneumothorax). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traumatic_aortic_rupture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
So in your experience, what level of force is required to cause heart bruising?
Bad car wrecks, no air bags. Falls from great height. In both of these situations, cardiac contusion is generally the least of the patient's problems. Cardiac contusion is no huge deal in the absence of conduction system abnormalities. We used to worry about it (along with cardiac "concussion") back in the 80s. Medicine has fads, like anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
A heavy sap blow is about analogous to a full-power baseball bat blow. Strong enough to cause that sort of trauma?
Eh. Baseball bat? Maybe. The heart is very well-protected, and very tough; it also deforms easily and without ill effect under pressure (the blood simply squirts out through the valves; we're not talking a burst balloon here). Only once in twenty years do I recall diagnosing cardiac contusion as the primary injury, and that was by virtue of cardiac enzymes; the patient had no ECG abnormalities. Car wreck.

Last edited by dharma; 01-24-2012 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:01 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dharma View Post
I'm obviously having trouble getting this point across: commotio cords ia an electrical phenomenon, not a mechanical one. Transmission of mechanical force to the heart will not cause cardiac arrest. It is the electrical current caused by that chest wall deformation that causes cardiac arrest. Does this improve your understanding of the physiology? I'll try again, if not.
I got that already. I thought I made it clear that I was now asking about actual mechanical injury to the heart, not electrical disruption.
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Meaningless in and of itself. Please feel free to show me a reference for this as being an important criterion. That video doesn't count.
"That video" is not a source. The person in the video, however, Dr. Cynthia Bir, Associate Professor of Biomedical Engineering and the presumed source of the scientific info in the video, *is* an authoritative source.
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Quote:
Mmmmm . . . duh? We weren't talking about damaging the heart. We were talking about the induction of cardiac arrest. Reference your own article. That being said, injury to the heart is rare with blunt trauma (not so much if a knife or gun is involved).

Rarely, and it's generally very slow; injury to small vessels causes "weeping". Penetrating trauma causes tamponade frequently, but that's not what we are discussing.

On the contrary, this is the most frequent cause of death referable to the cardiovascular system in blunt chest trauma (not the most frequent cause of BCT death, period, which I believe is tension pneumothorax).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traumatic_aortic_rupture

Bad car wrecks, no air bags. Falls from great height. In both of these situations, cardiac contusion is generally the least of the patient's problems. Cardiac contusion is no huge deal in the absence of conduction system abnormalities. We used to worry about it (along with cardiac "concussion") back in the 80s. Medicine has fads, like anything else.
---

Eh. Baseball bat? Maybe. The heart is very well-protected, and very tough; it also deforms easily and without ill effect under pressure (the blood simply squirts out through the valves; we're not talking a burst balloon here). Only once in twenty years do I recall diagnosing cardiac contusion as the primary injury, and that was by virtue of cardiac enzymes; the patient had no ECG abnormalities. Car wreck.
Okay, that answers my question. A serious blow to the chest with that amount of force is unlikely to cause death through injury to the heart. Thanks.
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:13 PM   #20
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OK, a bit of Googling and we discover that the bat head speed for a pro player is about 70 MPH—meaning that the differential speed between the chest wall and the instrument of blunt trauma is about the same as for a car wreck.

Except that the bat speed in an assault is probably going to be a good deal less, unless the assailant is a pro baseball player who can do a complete swing from a good stance. Unlikely.

And, although the angular velocity of a sap may be similar to that of a bat, it is much shorter, so the speed at the head will be much less. Remember that E = MV*2, so this is going to greatly decrease the delivered energy.

Lastly, the mass involved is less than that of a bat, and, rather obviously, vastly less than that of a car.

FWIW.

My brother and I used to play with my grandfather's saps. Hurts to get hit with one? Damn straight. Instruments of massive, incapacitating trauma? I guess in the hands of a master, many things are possible.

---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:12 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Ought Six
The person in the video, however, Dr. Cynthia Bir, Associate Professor of Biomedical Engineering and the presumed source of the scientific info in the video, *is* an authoritative source.
Not based on the criteria she's using.
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:58 PM   #21
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OK, a bit of Googling and we discover that the bat head speed for a pro player is about 70 MPH—meaning that the differential speed between the chest wall and the instrument of blunt trauma is about the same as for a car wreck.

Except that the bat speed in an assault is probably going to be a good deal less, unless the assailant is a pro baseball player who can do a complete swing from a good stance. Unlikely.

And, although the angular velocity of a sap may be similar to that of a bat, it is much shorter, so the speed at the head will be much less. Remember that E = MV*2, so this is going to greatly decrease the delivered energy.

Lastly, the mass involved is less than that of a bat, and, rather obviously, vastly less than that of a car. FWIW.
The weight of the heaviest bats is about 30 ounces. About half of that at most is concentrated out at the tip; a pound or so. I do not have a small scale, but my sap feels to me like it weighs at least a pound. With a bat, the weight is evenly distributed along the large surface area of the head. With a sap, all the weight is concentrated in the small area; just a few square inches; of the lead tablet. The bat is not held with the arm extended, but with the arm pulled in. The sap is swung with the arm fully extended for a full-power blow. I think the moment arm of inertia and actual striking mass in both cases is pretty similar, while the sap concentrates the energy from the strike into a smaller area than the bat; even more so if you strike with the squared edge, instead of the flat.
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Quote:
My brother and I used to play with my grandfather's saps. Hurts to get hit with one? Damn straight. Instruments of massive, incapacitating trauma?
I do not know how large a sap you are talking about. They very widely in size. The small, rounded, concealable ones are not capable of delivering the same sort of crushing blows as the large flat ones. If your brother had taken a full swing at you with my sap, you would have been going to the hospital.

BTW, the rounded ones are properly called a billy, and the larger flat ones are called a sap.
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Quote:
I guess in the hands of a master, many things are possible.
Not sure if you are being serious or snarky, but there is no 'master' of the sap. It is a weapon designed to be used by the average person. It is so simple and effective that no martial art system of special techniques has ever grown around it in its centuries of usage. That is simply unneeded.
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Quote:
Not based on the criteria she's using.
You have seen lots of trauma in your practice, no doubt. Biomedical engineering is a different field, investigating the mechanics of the body, as you probably know. You can deal with trauma, but do you have the sort of detailed knowledge to design an anatomically correct crash test dummy that will give valid data? Because that requires an extensive knowledge of things like rib cage deflection under impact, and precise bone breakage pressures, and much, much more. Can you really gainsay an experienced doctorate in a related, but different field? A fair question, I think.
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Last edited by Ought Six; 01-24-2012 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:13 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
Not sure if you are being serious or snarky
Both. Not my area of expertise, and, based on your description, we were playing with billys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
there is no 'master' of the sap.
Precisely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
do you have the sort of detailed knowledge to design an anatomically correct crash test dummy that will give valid data?
Nope. Based on the subject being discussed, and the analysis given, neither do they. They appear to have no understanding of the mechanism of the phenomenon under study, based on the narration. In fairness, we're watching a pop sci program for laypeople, made by laypeople, with narration written by laypeople, who are unlikely to understand much, if any, of what they're talking about, and are looking for spectacle rather than accuracy. I'm sure the scientists' real research is a great deal more rigorous. I doubt they do much study of self-styled "ninjas" striking "killing blows"—in the wrong place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
Can you really gainsay an experienced doctorate in a related, but different field?
We're not in her field. We're in mine. I work with actual people, which are, I believe, the focus of this discussion, and have what I flatter myself is a pretty thorough understanding of the way the human body works—and the ways in which it stops working.

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Old 01-24-2012, 07:40 PM   #23
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Okay, fair enough.
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