Can a 9 year old be a psychopath?

[linttrap]

This is a fascinating article about the identification of traits that make up the Callous-Unemotional child, whether those children are destined to be psychopaths as adults, and if there are any early treatments that can be effective with them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/ma...pagewanted=all

[sandyd]

Yes.

If it's innate then it may well start at conception or during fetal development. As in "born that way".

Can it be modified?

Doubt we can get permission to try stuff like the bonding hormone I read about that was tested as a nasal spray to see how people felt.

But sure would be interesting to see if the warmth could be a chemical issue that we can change.

The other question is: Should we? The ones who are not prison material, can be leaders and great warriors. Do we want to blunt them?

[CanadaSue]

The problem sandy is in figuring out early who the leaders & great warriors are. It's always been said that the most successful warriers, strategists & tacticians both have had more than a few psychopathic components to them. Many have performed poorly in civilian milieus. What do you do with a great warrior between wars; lock them up in barrack boxes?

It was a fascinating & chilling article to read. I didn't like the "let's not identify them because then they'll be stuck with a nasty label" approach. As if family, neighbours, teachers, etc. don't know there's something seriously wrong.

Psychopaths, as the article clearly stated, cost society a lot both in money & angst. I can't imagine the nightmare of parenting these kids - talk about all consuming. And with siblings? You'd feel more like a night watchman, a prison guard at times than a parent. I can certainly understand the inability to be warm with these kids, the instinct to push them away.

Imagine a psychopath child with impulse control beyond the norm for his/her age as well as a high level of intelligence.

Duck & cover.

[Feather]

Originally Posted by CanadaSue

Imagine a psychopath child with impulse control beyond the norm for his/her age as well as a high level of intelligence.

Duck & cover.

You just described my oldest son. There were times I didn't know if either of us were going to survive.

[sandyd]

What do you do with a great warrior between wars; lock them up in barrack boxes?

What we do now. War 'games'. Or some turn that into more of a business model.
How to prevent them from doing a world crash? 'buying governments'?
I dunno...

But while we take out the worst if we can change their brains enough, we may lose the best as well. If we can learn enough about % of brain difference, monitoring the differences, we may be able to pinpoint the ones likely to be reined in by logic and those who won't stop themselves.

I think many do see prison as bad and so alter their behavior enough to work for what they want while skirting the legal lines.
The ones who don't, are the ones we now imprison, would be my bet.

And yeah, I can't guess how parents cope other than by excuses and denial that their kid will be one of the bad ones.

Isn't that pretty normal for parenting tho?

I'm also happy to see they are NOT blaiming the parents. As I was growing up, a lot really was blamed on poor old mom and dad.

[flourbug]

Psychopaths do not make "good" anythings.

When you say leader and warrior, do you mean George Washington or Gengis Khan?

The criteria for diagnosis of psychopathy can be compared to fire. Many of the same "qualities" of a forest fire can be attributed to a crackling log in your hearth on a cold winter's night. Yet there is no comparison between the two. One is your servant, the other your master.

History is replete with psychopathic leaders who murdered their way to the top, raised vicious armies to conquer neighboring countries, raped and slaughtered civilian populations, burned towns and salted fields, and crowned themselves king of an empire - and thousands more who have tried and failed.

That is the type of leader a psychopath makes. He has no cause or country to defend. He does not care about YOU. His raeson d'etre is personal glory and absolute subjugation of his perceived enemies.

You do not ever, EVER, want a psychopath in any position of authority. They are the human equivalent of a raging forest fire. As much as you think you know their mind, as much as you think they are under control or that you can direct their path to good, they have one goal - to incinerate you. Just because they CAN.

[lilly]

Have known a few.

And the parents know it pretty soon, as it manifests itself early, and excuse it, and enable it. Not their fault that some are born that way. We all handle things as we see fit.

I made a suggestion to one woman that her teen should be sent to a very posh sanitarium that catered to the wealthy, to be analyzed and if possible treated. The situation seemed dire to me, and it was. A month later all hell broke loose. They had the money, no issue there. Would treatment or analysis have changed anything, or only delayed the damage done? Possibly not.

Later the teen was diagnosed as a sociopath. I lost track after the mayhem, so the future may have been rosy.

People do enable sociopathic individuals, for whatever reasons? They are extremely hard to live with. Used to getting their way anyway they can. With no remorse for the damage they do.

Each case is different.

[sandyd]

No wonder they don't want to label the kids before we even know if their brain differences are always 'evil'. If we only put 15% in jails, and maybe another 15% or a bit more never gets caught-so they mostly play by the rules- it doesn't seem right to toss out all of those with the brain difference.

I admit, the ones people are sure will be killers and con artists and don't even try to play by the rules could be done away with. Yeah, kill 'em. Early. If they are that dangerous to the rest of us.

But until we know if there are others who have that brain difference, in various degrees of more or less, and some are functional and useful humans who operate without giving a shit but know to the rest of us, it matters, so they modify their behaviors....

I'm not ready to give up on that. They may be the ones who have kept humans alive during the worst of times by leading....even when they knew 80% might die on the way, they could lead the 20% and themselves, out of the pits. Many of us would freeze with that knowledge or flip out along the way as we watched so many not make it.

[CanadaSue]

Who said anything abut anybody being 'tossed' or killed?

Idenitfying them simply provides an opportunity to KNOW who these kids are & observe their progress.

Until they DO something criminal, they're not criminals.

But I sure as hell wouldn't turn my back on tem & I'd rather be aware of who's out there potentially manipulating others to fulfill their own wants - regardless of the consequences.

[sandyd]

I think I said it first in response to how I took fb's post.

And yes, one day, those we know are truly dangerous will have to be removed forever form society. And if it costs 150,000 or even 50,000 a year to house them safely, while we give 12 or 24,000 to disabled or seniors who contribute, unless money rains from heaven, killing is the only end path.

Maybe not now, but do you really figure we will have good time financially forever after this crunch is over?

Sounds like they are watching them and learning.

And by gosh...so many times I've heard kids that young don't think like that and don't lie.
I never believed it but so many do....gotta lot of educating the public to do.

Need a better label though. Too many will think 'no hope' when we do not know if there is hope or not yet.

---------- Post added at 02:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ----------

I'd rather be aware of who's out there potentially manipulating others to fulfill their own wants

That is already more the norm than not, IMHO.

regardless of the consequences.

that is the big problem but I think most weight them and deicde. Some even at 5 with their limited ability to weigh.

[flourbug]

sandyd, to be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, there must be a long-term pattern of manipulating, exploiting, or violating the rights of others. Psychopathy goes one step further and adds aggressive narcissism to the list - they have a grandiose sense of self worth, are pathological liars, are incapable of feeling compassion and empathy and guilt, and refuse to accept responsibility for their actions.

You cannot be sure their symptoms will *specifically* manifest as murder or conning people. But in order to be diagnosed in the first place, they have to have a history of causing harm to others. Some of them can get quite creative in this regard.

Really, whether they end up behind bars (or stay married, or win elections, or get promoted) is not dependent on what they do, so much as their ability to maintain the appearance of being normal while lying and playing the victim well enough to convince others.

[sandyd]

Then you are saying no child could be diagnosed with it or even seen as a potential as not enough time has passed?

[flourbug]

sandyd, that's the title of the article.

The DSM definition of ASPD requires the age of the patient to be over 18, and a history of Conduct Disorder before the age of 15. If you read the diagnostic criteria for Conduct Disorder, it is virtually identical to ASPD. There's Early Onset Conduct Disorder, where the child has problems before age 10, and then Adolescent Onset which is the absence of problems before age 10, but they are present after that age.

What they are really describing in the article is a young child with Early Onset Conduct Disorder who will go on to be diagnosed with ASPD or Psychopathy when it is age appropriate.

Splitting hairs, IMO. Some people are evil. Some are born evil.

---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:37 PM ----------

btw, good article here - http://www.thehiddenevil.com/psychopathy.asp

[sandyd]

I don't see it as black and white but rather a rainbow. Or more like an incline. A road uphill is not straight up. It has a gradual incline and twists and turns with pull outs.

A human with, what may be a brain difference, still won't be the same as another with the same physical brain difference.

Some will modify their behavior even without the same inhibitions as my brain or yours because those people will choose to learn. As it is, my inhibitions and yours are different, but fall within a 'normal' range.

Those that are not able to, well...call 'em evil since it covers how pointless it is to keep those types alive at all.

Not every kid they are studying and trying to help with camps, will harm others in ways we consider evil. Just mean....

---------- Post added at 02:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ----------

oh and the DSM is not some god book to me...rather it's a slowly changing and growing effort to show differences in humans and see which might be helped as needed.

[flourbug]

I don't see it as black and white but rather a rainbow. Or more like an incline.

You're wrong. Psychopaths are: "morally depraved individuals who represent the 'monsters' in our society. They are unstoppable and untreatable predators whose violence is planned, purposeful and emotionless." - Antisocial Personality, Sociopathy, and Psychopathy, by North Carolina Wesleyan College

There's no rainbows there.

[sandyd]

Then people with the same brain difference these kids show and the psychopaths show, that are not doing evil things, are just people with the same brain differences but not the label of psychopath? And should not be labeled such?


I'm not sure we are understanding each other.

Are those who do not cross legal lines but who don't give a shit about others, psychopaths? Or just mean asshats?

[sandyd]

Magnetic resonance imaging on the brains of adult psychopaths has shown what appear to be significant anatomical differences: a smaller subgenual cortex and a 5 to 10 percent reduction in brain density in portions of the paralimbic system, regions of the brain associated with empathy and social values, and active in moral decision making. According to James Blair, a cognitive neuroscientist at the National Institute of Mental Health, two of these areas, the orbitofrontal cortex and the caudate, are critical for reinforcing positive outcomes and discouraging negative ones. In callous-unemotional children, Blair says, that connection may be defective, with negative feedback not registering the way it would in a normal brain.

There is a rainbow between 5 and 10% in any amounts you want to find, if we can find them. Can't yet.

Could someone with 3% difference still grow up and be 'evil'? Is someone with 12% always going to go bad?

We don't know yet.

What if some part of the people who seem normal, do not do evil things, were tested and found to be in that 5-10%? What if you are? Or your children? Yet, from all you see of them, they are nice, contributing members of society?

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------

unstoppable and untreatable predators

That is with what we know today.

What if tomorrow a treatment was found even for those who do evil?

[flourbug]

Originally Posted by sandyd

Then people with the same brain difference these kids show and the psychopaths show, that are not doing evil things, are just people with the same brain differences but not the label of psychopath? And should not be labeled such?

The diagnostic criteria is based on behavior, not "brain differences".

I'm not sure we are understanding each other.

I understand what you're writing.

You are using "normal" assumptions to define an abnormal condition.

Let's use pregnancy as a comparison. You cannot be partly pregnant. You are pregnant, or you are not pregnant. Very black and white. However, some women show more - they gain more weight, have larger bellies and breasts. They are not more pregnant. Nor is the woman who gains less weight during the course of her pregnancy, less pregnant. They are both pregnant. When it comes to delivery, some women will have a vaginal birth, some women will have a c-section. But ALL women will give birth.

Psychopaths are psychopaths. Whether they show it prominently, or they are successful at hiding their condition, they are still psychopaths, ie, they have a history of violating the rights of others. Whether they are a serial killer, or they con old ladies out of their life savings, or they beat their wives, or they misuse power and authority to abuse others, ALL will manifest the behavior patterns of a psychopath.

Are those who do not cross legal lines but who don't give a shit about others, psychopaths? Or just mean asshats?

Could go either way.

The patient must first meet certain criteria, such as age and the lack of other mental illnesses, to even have psychopathy be considered as a possibility. They must then meet the diagnostic criteria for ASPD by exhibiting three or more, of seven traits. ONE of those traits is: failure to conform to social norms (evidenced by repeated unlawful behaviors). Then they must get a high score on the twenty one observable objective behaviors on the Hare test.

If the mean asshat meets the other criteria, then, BINGO.

---------- Post added at 06:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 PM ----------

That is with what we know today.

What if tomorrow a treatment was found even for those who do evil?

Then that would be wonderful. Just as wonderful - and just as likely - as stopping aging.

[sandyd]

But pregnancy is PHYSICAL and diagnosed due to physical changes.

Psychopathy is diagnosed only with behaviors.

Apples and Lettuce.

---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:09 PM ----------

The patient must first meet certain criteria, such as age

Then some of what this article must be saying is, the way we diagnose it may change.

Cuz as it stands, AGE matters and thus no child can be diagnosed it even if it sure looks like 'the next Ted Bundy'.

---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:11 PM ----------

And maybe we are looking at the physical stuff that makes up behaviors and that will change the DSM too.

[sandyd]

In the 1970s, the psychiatry researcher Lee Robins conducted a series of studies on children with behavioral problems, following them into adulthood. Those studies revealed two things. The first was that nearly every psychopathic adult was deeply antisocial as a child. The second was that almost 50 percent of children who scored high on measures of antisocial qualities did not go on to become psychopathic adults.

So, based on behaviors only half went on to fit the description of psychopathic adults.

Might the other 50% just be asshats? Be interesting to know.

[CanadaSue]

A related article:

***How a psychopath is made***


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...1769674/page1/

[ltow]

Can a 9 year old be a psychopath - my 2 cents - yes.

In the article, one example given is the kid who pushed another into the deep end to see someone drown. (Sounds like a Johnny Cash tune)
In the article the kid sounded nonplussed about what he'd done.

The 9 year old the article starts out about seems to have a bit of a difference - he covers his tracks.

Are they both psychopaths, or is one a sociopath and the other a psychopath?

If so - which is which and why?

Bonus points if you don't use medical jargon so a j6p like me can understand.

[sandyd]

Are they both psychopaths, or is one a sociopath and the other a psychopath?

What I saw in the article was both are the same thing....

No idea how lay people divide each up as different.

[flowerchild]

I have met two children in the hundreds of children I have met or worked with in my life that I felt were true psychopaths. One is my next door neighbor's son. I have watched him grow up. What sealed it, was a few years ago, I watched him carefully look around (they were outside) and slowly put his hands around his younger brothers throat and try to strangle him. He was trying to see how long it would take him to pass out and I believe even worse. I will be very glad when he grows up and moves away.