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Old 09-23-2016, 04:09 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerchild View Post
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37445070

Here it is.

Also, NC is a open carry state, he had a legal right to carry.
"Open Carry" is *not* the same as having a license to carry.

North Carolina *requires* a license to carry.

Period.

If one is issued a permit to carry, they have the option to carry in the open (but that does not allow them to brandish the weapon) or to carry concealed.

Now let's toss this into the mix:

The victims family said he was disabled and had some sort of brain injury.

Being disabled does not mean one is unfit to own and or carry a legal weapon.

However, if he was, as his family contends, on medication for his brain injury / disability; then the question is, was he fully mentally competent to carry.

I can't speak ti NC laws, *however* here in FL, if one has been issued a carry permit, it is automatically revoked if that person becomes mentally incapable of having the capacity / cognitive abilities, to safely possess and or carry a weapon.

This can mean anything from TBI (depending on degree of impairment) to having a stroke to having been adjudicated (after a thorough review by several parties) to be mentally unfit to own a firearm.

Lots of questions out there that need to be addressed such as:

Was the victim *licensed* to carry?

What was his disability?

Was it for some a psychiatric disorder? If so, what was it.

If so, did his doctor know he had weapons and or a carry permit? If so, IIRC, the doctor is under some degree of legal requirement to contact the issuing agency and they would then contact the victim and advise them to surrender their carry permit. Here in FL, the speed at which that process moves is very fast. As in same day, if the person had been adjudicated by the courts to be mentally incompetent.

What sort of medication was he on?

Did his spouse or family, being aware of his brain injury / issues and disability, raise the question of his ability to safely and competently carry a firearm?

If so, they could well be responsible to some degree, for this tragedy.

I've had a 'dog in that fight' and speak from personal experience.

Even before the courts became involved, despite my deep respect for the 2nd amendment and being extremely concerned about a persons' rights being compromised or limited; I also knew I had a responsibility, morally and legally, to do all in my power to remove all access to firearms, when my husband began to have serious problems. Not only to for his safety, but of others and myself.
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Old 09-23-2016, 04:22 PM   #52
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I fully agree with what you have said, and it is the reason I won't have a gun in the house, even though my son would like one.

ETA, a TBI can and does radically change a person's temperament and decision making ability.
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Old 09-23-2016, 04:26 PM   #53
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Well, as we found out in a horrifying manner with the Sandyhook massacre if there is a person in the home with a mental incapacity firearms ownership becomes problematic.

That MAY have been the case here.

IF he actually had a gun on him at the time.

It's all going to come out eventually.
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Old 09-23-2016, 08:56 PM   #54
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I looked it up earlier today. Someone that is a convicted felon cannot have a gun in NC. We know he was a convicted felon. That's likely why he had a book and not a gun.

The brain injury came apparently from an accident in 2015. His criminal record pre-dates that accident. Is it really logical to base his behaviour on just the brain injury?

If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it must be an elephant I guess.

From the wife's video:

Quote:
Keith, don't let them break the windows! Come on out of the car," she can be heard yelling, "Keith, don't do it!"

"Keith, Keith, Keith — don't you do it!"
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...-keith-n653426
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Old 09-24-2016, 08:02 AM   #55
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Chart found among reader comments at this link .

..
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Old 09-24-2016, 02:39 PM   #56
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This is why BLM is protesting. The above graph is meaningless in terms of blacks being shot by the police.

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9...k-lives-matter
"An analysis of the available FBI data by Vox’s Dara Lind shows that US police kill black people at disproportionate rates: They accounted for 31 percent of police killing victims in 2012, even though they made up just 13 percent of the US population. Although the data is incomplete, since it’s based on voluntary reports from police agencies around the country, it highlights the vast disparities in how police use force.

Black teens were 21 times as likely as white teens to be shot and killed by police between 2010 and 2012, according to a ProPublica analysis of the FBI data. ProPublica’s Ryan Gabrielson, Ryann Grochowski Jones, and Eric Sagara reported: "One way of appreciating that stark disparity, ProPublica’s analysis shows, is to calculate how many more whites over those three years would have had to have been killed for them to have been at equal risk. The number is jarring — 185, more than one per week."

My thoughts,
It is impossible to find the total number of shootings/ killings done by police because they refuse to release the data. As the public is paying for them, and their job is to protect and serve, don't we have a right to know this?
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Old 09-24-2016, 02:47 PM   #57
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He was reading the Quran when he was shot, says the BBC
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Old 09-24-2016, 03:13 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerchild View Post
This is why BLM is protesting. The above graph is meaningless in terms of blacks being shot by the police.

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9...k-lives-matter
"An analysis of the available FBI data by Vox’s Dara Lind shows that US police kill black people at disproportionate rates: They accounted for 31 percent of police killing victims in 2012, even though they made up just 13 percent of the US population. Although the data is incomplete, since it’s based on voluntary reports from police agencies around the country, it highlights the vast disparities in how police use force.

Black teens were 21 times as likely as white teens to be shot and killed by police between 2010 and 2012, according to a ProPublica analysis of the FBI data. ProPublica’s Ryan Gabrielson, Ryann Grochowski Jones, and Eric Sagara reported: "One way of appreciating that stark disparity, ProPublica’s analysis shows, is to calculate how many more whites over those three years would have had to have been killed for them to have been at equal risk. The number is jarring — 185, more than one per week."

My thoughts,
It is impossible to find the total number of shootings/ killings done by police because they refuse to release the data. As the public is paying for them, and their job is to protect and serve, don't we have a right to know this?
Perhaps you should go directly to the source, FC. Namely the FBI.

Look at the actual statistics, not a regurgitation that is may be / is, slanted to validate their agenda.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex _of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls



Also consider this:

Virtually everything comes down to a matter of personal choice.

Why is it that some individuals can come from entrenched poverty, be raised by a single parent, attend public schools and rise above it, while others in the exact same situation will choose to sink to the lowest common denominator?

Personal choice.

The Black community only relatively recently embraced victimhood as a reason and rationalization of the generational welfare mentality, parental irresponsibility and blaming everyone except themselves, for the resulting heartbreak and consequences.

When I was growing up, I had more friends who were Black or Hispanic, who came from intact, two parent families, than White friends who could claim the same.

There was a much greater importance on keeping the family together within the Black and Hispanic community. And more strong women who had no problem swatting the bottom of any child who misbehaved. There always seemed to be someone's granny or tia or mom, with eyes and ears and they would call you on your getting stupid ... And make sure your mom was told exactly what you'd been up to ..........
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Old 09-24-2016, 03:20 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerchild View Post
This is why BLM is protesting. The above graph is meaningless in terms of blacks being shot by the police.

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9...k-lives-matter
"An analysis of the available FBI data by Vox’s Dara Lind shows that US police kill black people at disproportionate rates: They accounted for 31 percent of police killing victims in 2012, even though they made up just 13 percent of the US population. Although the data is incomplete, since it’s based on voluntary reports from police agencies around the country, it highlights the vast disparities in how police use force.

Black teens were 21 times as likely as white teens to be shot and killed by police between 2010 and 2012, according to a ProPublica analysis of the FBI data. ProPublica’s Ryan Gabrielson, Ryann Grochowski Jones, and Eric Sagara reported: "One way of appreciating that stark disparity, ProPublica’s analysis shows, is to calculate how many more whites over those three years would have had to have been killed for them to have been at equal risk. The number is jarring — 185, more than one per week."
My local news comes out of Baltimore. According to the US Census, 63.7% of Baltimore inhabitants are black. If crime statistics are spread evenly over the population at large, 1/3 of reported crimes should then have been committed by white people, right? Then why, for the past 25 years, have almost all criminals identified by the local news been black? It is exceedingly rare, on the order of maybe once a year, that a wanted perpetrator, or a convicted felon, is white.

93 percent of homicide victims in Baltimore are black. Almost all of them were killed by other blacks.

Perhaps if the black population was not disproportionately engaged in committing crimes, they would not be disproportionately represented among criminals being shot by police.
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Old 09-24-2016, 05:22 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.T. Hagan View Post
Police say black 'disabled' man shot dead by Charlotte cop 'ignored repeated orders to drop his gun' after brother's claims he was holding a book prompted night of riots which left 16 cops injured

Keith Lamont Scott, 43, was shot dead by police in the parking lot of an apartment complex on Tuesday
Charlotte-Mecklenburg police said they recovered a gun from his vehicle after the deadly shooting
Claims from his brother that he was only reading a book sparked riots near the scene of the shooting
Police Chief Kerr Putney said how the shooting unfolded is 'very different' to how it is being portrayed
City officials have now pleaded for peace and calm, with more protests planned for Wednesday evening
Officer Brentley Vinson, who is also black, was identified as the one who shot Scott and he has been placed on administrative leave as is standard procedure in officer-involved shootings
On Tuesday night, police in riot gear confronted protesters and deployed tear gas to disperse the crowds
Police said 16 officers were injured during the protests, including one who was hit in the face with a rock


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ding-book.html
There's one niggling little thing that bothers me about this shooting. In the initial reporting, the police are quoted as saying that a gun was found in the car, as above. I recall reading it multiple times because I was trying to figure out if and/or how the gun could have landed in the car, given where the man was when shot.

But then, suddenly a day or two later, we're told that a gun-like object was found on the ground next to him after he was shot.

I'm not arguing with the fact that he was shot, IF indeed he exited the car while armed and refused to drop the weapon, then he presented an imminent threat to the officers.

What concerns me is the difference in the information given to the public. If the police THOUGHT he had a gun, but he didn't, and they fired, that is one situation (assuming he was not carrying the gun and it was found in the car afterwards). If the police definitely SAW that he was armed and then fired, and the gun landed on the pavement near him, then that's an entirely different story. I realize that initial information can often be wrong, but the location of that gun is critical information and easily figured out. If it wasn't found in the car and was actually on the ground, than that's a pretty big error for the PD to make. Especially when it points the investigation in one direction rather than another.

This case also brings up something that I simply don't understand. In an age where anyone can easily buy a GoPro type of camera, or even a cell phone with camera, that records everything with breathtaking clarity, why is it that the police body and dash cams so often seem to produce such poor video? I'm sure the answer boils down to money. But common sense dictates that equipping a police force with decent video cams is cheaper than the cost of what's happened in Charlotte, and Baltimore, and Ferguson, etc.
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Old 09-24-2016, 06:22 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catbird View Post
This case also brings up something that I simply don't understand. In an age where anyone can easily buy a GoPro type of camera, or even a cell phone with camera, that records everything with breathtaking clarity, why is it that the police body and dash cams so often seem to produce such poor video? I'm sure the answer boils down to money. But common sense dictates that equipping a police force with decent video cams is cheaper than the cost of what's happened in Charlotte, and Baltimore, and Ferguson, etc.
Good point!

Here's something that I don't recall being explained.

Why was his wife there filming him?

If all he was doing was sitting in a car with a book, presumably reading; why film him?

Was she concerned he might have outstanding warrants?

So many questions.
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Old 09-24-2016, 06:38 PM   #62
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Because he was waiting for his son to get of the bus. She was in the apartment they lived at, presumably heard the commotion. She actually went back to get her phone charger to record what the police were doing. In this day and age, I don't blame anyone for recording the police.

I would think if he had outstanding warrants, that would have been mentioned, as the police were there for someone else who had one. The police have said they weren't there for him.


The police just said they will release the tapes.
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Old 09-25-2016, 05:30 PM   #63
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The police say they tazed him. And then we are asked to believe that he managed to hold on to "the gun" and became a threat to them - all in a matter of seconds or a minute or two at the most.

One does not recover from a tazing in such a short time. And I have a hard time believing that *if* he had a a gun he was able to hold on to it while being tazed.

The cops pushed that confrontation into a kill situation for themselves. They had the option to back off a bit and use the woman who was yelling and quite obviously knew him to defuse a situation they themselves pushed into a tragic ending.

I don't see this as a "justified kill" at all.
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Old 09-25-2016, 09:10 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinnerholic View Post
The police say they tazed him. And then we are asked to believe that he managed to hold on to "the gun" and became a threat to them - all in a matter of seconds or a minute or two at the most.

One does not recover from a tazing in such a short time. And I have a hard time believing that *if* he had a a gun he was able to hold on to it while being tazed.

The cops pushed that confrontation into a kill situation for themselves. They had the option to back off a bit and use the woman who was yelling and quite obviously knew him to defuse a situation they themselves pushed into a tragic ending.

I don't see this as a "justified kill" at all.
Thank you for this eye-witness report.
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Old 09-25-2016, 10:48 PM   #65
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spinner do you have a source for the police saying they first used a taser? I've read a lot of articles, and watched many reports and duscussions, and this is the first time I'm hearing about a taser.
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Old 09-26-2016, 12:37 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catbird View Post
This case also brings up something that I simply don't understand. In an age where anyone can easily buy a GoPro type of camera, or even a cell phone with camera, that records everything with breathtaking clarity, why is it that the police body and dash cams so often seem to produce such poor video? I'm sure the answer boils down to money. But common sense dictates that equipping a police force with decent video cams is cheaper than the cost of what's happened in Charlotte, and Baltimore, and Ferguson, etc.
This technology has advanced quite quickly. Many police forces already bought dash cams some years back that are still functional. It cna be expensive kit to replace. Body cams are fraught with policy and legal issues that have yet to be sorted out. A lot of services are still waiting to see how they play out in the organizations that have been early adopters.

Someone mentioned a taser being used- that's the first I've seen that brought up at all. I'm very skeptical that any of the officers would have fille dtheir hand with a taser if the other guy was beleived to have a gun. You just don't bring a taser to a potential gun fight. I watched all three videos and did not hear a taser discharge; it's very distinct.
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Old 09-26-2016, 01:26 AM   #67
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FWIW..........

Perhaps Lint could add more insight.

My hubby had been DX'd with TBI a few years back when he was experiencing some severe issues.

Even prior to that when his issues began, and 9-1-1 had been called and EMT's sent, I would greet them at the door and explain hubby was a Nam combat vet, had severe PTSD and was experiencing some sort of crisis. I would assure them he had not access to weapons, I'd removed them from our home. I would also explain that he was not prone to violence *but* was acting in a manner unlike anything I'd seen in over 25 years together.

That information was necessary and important for both his safety and theirs.

I've done the same with ER staff and all those who were trying to care for him during that time.

Here's the thing:

In an moment of crisis, there's not always going to be someone who can tell responders the person they're about to engage with, has a TBI or other issue which could cause them to act irrationally or not respond in an appropriate manner.

Tragedies can and do, ensue because of this.
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Old 09-26-2016, 09:19 AM   #68
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Two of the videos from the police can be viewed here:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/charlotte...224941913.html

Neither gives a clear view of what police were seeing. I can see why they've been hesitant to release them, as (IMHO) they don't really make a definitive case for or against the shooting. Sure, they can be used in conjucntion with other evidence to help sort out what happened, but in and of themselves are not definitive.
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Old 09-27-2016, 04:33 PM   #69
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Keith Scott owned a gun, court documents show, contradicting claims after killing by police sparked riots

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...dicting-claim/

Quote:
The black man whose killing by a police officer sparked race riots in Charlotte had owned a gun, court records show, contradicting claims by his family that first prompted the unrest.

Authorities said Keith Scott was carrying a loaded weapon when he was fatally shot by a police officer last week, but Mr Scott's relatives countered that he had been carrying a book.

In a press conference after the shooting Justin Bamberg, a lawyer said the testimony he had collected from Mr Scott's family was that he "didn't own a gun" and "didn't carry a gun".

But in October last year, Rakeyia Scott, the victim's wife, filed a domestic violence protective order in which she said her husband carried a 9mm hand gun and that he didn't own a permit for the weapon.

Mr Scott had beat her and her eight year old child and had threatened to "kill us last night with his gun," she wrote in the order obtained by a local news channel.

This was dismissed later in the month when Mrs Scott said her husband no longer posed a threat.
The rest at The Telegraph.
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Old 11-30-2016, 12:52 PM   #70
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CNN Breaking News email that just came in:

Quote:
Charlotte police Officer Brentley Vinson's deadly use of force was lawful the day he killed Keith Lamont Scott, Mecklenburg County District Attorney Andrew Murray said Wednesday.

"All the credible evidence" leads to the conclusion Scott was armed. His DNA was found on the grip of a gun found at the scene, Murray said.
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Old 11-30-2016, 01:18 PM   #71
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CNN Breaking News email that just came in:
Is there any indication that this will result in another round of violence?
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Old 11-30-2016, 01:34 PM   #72
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'He acted lawfully': Police officer who shot and killed Keith Lamont Scott will NOT be charged, DA announces
Quote:
Keith Lament Scott, 43, was shot by Charlotte police who were trying to find a different man on September 20
Was struck in his back, abdomen and wrist and death was ruled a homicide
Authorities said Scott had a gun, but his family denied the claim
The officer who shot Scott, Brentley Vinson, who is also black, was cleared of any criminal charges on Wednesday
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-shooting.html
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Old 11-30-2016, 04:45 PM   #73
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I listened to the DA Press Conference on this issue.

It is one of the best, most complete briefing I have ever heard on an issue.

The PDF of the report is here http://www.charmeckda.com/news/113016_1.pdf

No joy of the entire presser on YouTube, it was about 40 minutes.

The results revealed that he had a firearms, they document that he touched it in several places, who sold it to him, discussions between him and his wife about it, etc.

A lot of the people claiming they saw him shot with a book was not truthful even though they posted such on social media which lead to the riots.
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:50 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerchild View Post
This is why BLM is protesting. The above graph is meaningless in terms of blacks being shot by the police.

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9...k-lives-matter
"An analysis of the available FBI data by Vox’s Dara Lind shows that US police kill black people at disproportionate rates: They accounted for 31 percent of police killing victims in 2012, even though they made up just 13 percent of the US population. Although the data is incomplete, since it’s based on voluntary reports from police agencies around the country, it highlights the vast disparities in how police use force.

Black teens were 21 times as likely as white teens to be shot and killed by police between 2010 and 2012, according to a ProPublica analysis of the FBI data. ProPublica’s Ryan Gabrielson, Ryann Grochowski Jones, and Eric Sagara reported: "One way of appreciating that stark disparity, ProPublica’s analysis shows, is to calculate how many more whites over those three years would have had to have been killed for them to have been at equal risk. The number is jarring — 185, more than one per week."

My thoughts,
It is impossible to find the total number of shootings/ killings done by police because they refuse to release the data. As the public is paying for them, and their job is to protect and serve, don't we have a right to know this?
I'm late to this party, but I found a research paper that sheds some light on the police shootings by race issue.

This is really worth the read. Sort of eye opening! Fills in some blanks with FBI reporting, validates some of the WaPo and NYT data, and elaborates further..,

Why is the BLM narrative built on false pretenses? Read this report:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....9&download=yes
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Old 12-01-2016, 03:03 PM   #75
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A couple of white privileged pricks authored that paper.
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