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Old 11-12-2016, 10:05 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by CanadaSue View Post
Nope. In any case - how would they know someone will spend it? Trump has promised to reduce regulations, not add to them.
Anybody earning less than 50 thousand per year will spend it.

Trump has promised to lower the tax rate.... But what he should be doing is giving those lower income earners additional tax exemptions.

Half the reason there are so many regulations is because whenever a politician needs funding for reelection, they invent a discussion of a regulation of some sort and then all the lobbyists line up to influence the politician and contribute to his re-election campaign.

The more regulations discussed, the more money flows into political campaigns.

It is a 2 year cycle (timed for election years.).... First the regulation is legalized then 2 years later it is deemed wrongfully implemented. In both instances, the money flows through congress from lobbyists.

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Old 11-12-2016, 11:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Calm View Post
So, have I changed any minds as to whether or not tax breaks should only be given to those people who will spend it?

The economy is built on "Demand" and if people spend money, there is demand.

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No.

We're not all idiots here. There's a thread I've stuck in this forum called "Currency versus Money...." and it explains the system quite nicely.

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that saving is beneficial in many ways. Just because our governments spend beyond their means doesn't mean we should rush to emulate that behavior.
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Old 11-13-2016, 06:03 AM   #28
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Calm said ...
Quote:
The economy is built on "Demand" and if people spend money, there is demand.
Actually Calm , there is dubious logic buried in that comment.

To strip the productive sector of wealth and give it to the less
productive may work in the short term but over the long haul
it tends to kill an economy and therefore kills people ( slowly ) .

One must find a balance between being hard headed and
short term humanity .

IMO the US needs to urgently increase economic activity but
is , to put it brutally ''broke'' .

Government can print money until the cows come
home but if you have not increased resources available you
are going backwards and by far the most efficient way to increase
resources is via the private sector .

Frankly I think the US economy is in a debt trap and the
solution is to seek innovative mechanisms to free up and
mobilize capital .

Diverting the flow of wealth from hungry and stifling government
departments to productive sectors is such a mechanism .
However a quicker and less disruptive method is to as quickly as
possible strip away regulations that inhibit productive activity .

The invisible dead hand of government regulations is a very real
thing and IMO if most people understood how pervasive and damaging it is
they would be extremely shocked and change their positions instantly .

..
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Old 11-13-2016, 09:15 AM   #29
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No.

We're not all idiots here.
Well, if I thought this forum was chocked full of idiots, I would leave.

Calm

---------- Post added at 08:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 AM ----------

So, how do companies exist if they don't sell something?

And if people just banked their money rather than spend it within the country and not on tourism to distant lands, how does that create jobs?

And, if nobody has money left over after paying their bills, how does that create jobs?

What exactly creates jobs?

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Old 11-13-2016, 10:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calm View Post
Well, if I thought this forum was chocked full of idiots, I would leave.

Calm

---------- Post added at 08:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 AM ----------

So, how do companies exist if they don't sell something?

And if people just banked their money rather than spend it within the country and not on tourism to distant lands, how does that create jobs?

And, if nobody has money left over after paying their bills, how does that create jobs?

What exactly creates jobs?

Calm
Good lord. Seriously?

See post #11 for the short answer. Ross was onto something too when he suggested removing regulations.

Eliminating taxes frees up all kinds of capital. Most people with even a less-than-basic understanding of economics knows where that leads.

Government surely doesn't create jobs.

Central banking policy doesn't do it either. For every decision has an equal and opposite reaction. Some results just take longer to manifest. Think ZIRP.
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Old 11-15-2016, 05:17 PM   #31
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I thought that this was a pretty good interview.

It details what Trump may do with the economy.

It is Pro-Trump.

You need to spin ahead 1/2 way in each of the 2 video segments in order to watch the interview.

What Went Wrong For Hillary Clinton?
RT - Keiser Report
Host Max Keiser interviews Michael Hudson
November 12, 2016
https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hudson_(economist)
Part I of II
Max Keiser interviews Dr. Michael Hudson about what went wrong for Hillary.
(Flash Video)
https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-repo...max-keiser-992
Part II of II
Max continues his interview with Dr. Michael Hudson about what went wrong for Hillary.
November 15, 2016
(Flash Video)
https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-repo...max-keiser-993
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Old 11-15-2016, 08:04 PM   #32
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It's a slow day in some little town........

The sun is hot....the streets are deserted.

Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.

On this particular day a rich tourist from back west is driving thru town. He stops at the motel and lays a $100 bill on the desk saying he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night.

As soon as the man walks upstairs, the owner grabs the bill and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.

The butcher takes the $100 and runs down the street to retire his debt to the pig farmer.

The pig farmer takes the $100 and heads off to pay his bill at the feed store.

The guy at the Farmer's Co-op takes the $100 and runs to pay his debt to the local prostitute, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer her services on credit. She, in a flash rushes to the motel and pays off her room bill with the motel owner.

The motel proprietor now places the $100 back on the counter so the rich traveler will not suspect anything.

At that moment the traveler comes down the stairs, picks up the $100 bill, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money & leaves.

NOW ... no one produced anything ... and no one earned anything ... however, the whole town is out of debt and is looking to the future with much optimism.
What just happened, and what people who are encouraging consumption want to see happen, is that the velocity of money has increased. Note that no one has more than he did before, the net worth of society has not increased, but everyone is cheerful, everyone feels better. Magic, eh?

And maybe all that cheer will result in some real prosperity!

Sadly, it doesn't work that way. One's net worth increases only if one saves—spends less than one makes—and, in out hearts, we all know this. So, while our economically inept government has been doing everything it can to make credit cheap and increase consumption, you and I and lots of folks around us have not taken the bait. The velocity of money has steadily fallen, and, like the inhabitants of that dusty little down, we don't like the way it feels.



Prosperity comes from saving, not spending.
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Old 11-15-2016, 08:11 PM   #33
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Excellent, dharma.
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Old 11-15-2016, 10:03 PM   #34
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Thanx, hadn't seen that one for a while.
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Old 11-15-2016, 11:16 PM   #35
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But....doesn't the rich tourist have the $100 in the first place because he saved it? Isn't he basically a lender? He got it from someplace. Just trying to understand here....
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Old 11-16-2016, 01:35 AM   #36
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Velocity of money ..... the ratio between nominal GDP and money supply

The Rich Folks base their salary increases on the velocity of money or the MII money supply not inflation.

The reason being that the money supply denotes the actual amount of inflation within the economy and that is why the salaries are so huge.

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Old 11-16-2016, 12:12 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaSue
Thanx, hadn't seen that one for a while.
It's a classic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wojapi
But....doesn't the rich tourist have the $100 in the first place because he saved it? Isn't he basically a lender?
If I understand the question, Wojapi, it's extrinsic to the point. The example is quite artificial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calm
Velocity of money ..... the ratio between nominal GDP and money supply

The Rich Folks base their salary increases on the velocity of money or the MII money supply not inflation.

The reason being that the money supply denotes the actual amount of inflation within the economy and that is why the salaries are so huge.
I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. I will make an incidental observation, which is that rich people seldom have salaries, and that when they do, salaries are typically not their primary means of compensation.
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Old 11-16-2016, 12:28 PM   #38
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I will make an incidental observation, which is that rich people seldom have salaries, and that when they do, salaries are typically not their primary means of compensation.
But it isn't as divisive when you put it in those terms.
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Old 11-16-2016, 02:07 PM   #39
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Senior corporate executives base their salary demands with the realization that the more money supply there is, the less the value of a dollar becomes.

Poor Folks are compensated with regards to "Inflation".

Rich Folks are compensated with regards to "Money Supply"

Big difference.

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Old 11-16-2016, 04:13 PM   #40
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Well, no, actually there's not; monetary inflation, by definition, is caused by expansion of the money supply. They are the same thing.

I've been around a compensation committee or two. I am aware of none that use the criteria you specify. CPI is used as a multiplier in fixing Social Security "reimbursement", but that's not a good measure of inflation, and that's not a salary.

Corporate executives often make a very good living, but exceedingly few qualify as "rich", though your definition may differ.
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Old 11-16-2016, 06:55 PM   #41
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I don't mean to quibble because the point I wanted to make or intended to make was how the
Upper Class or why the senior corporate executives request such huge salaries.

It is because they view "long term" inflation from a more accurate formulation - Money Supply.

Whereas; the Average Joe views "short term" inflation from a basket of goods pronounced by a government department.

Other than that, there is little to be gained by me goin' on and on about it.

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Old 11-17-2016, 03:44 PM   #42
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I don't mean to quibble because the point I wanted to make or intended to make was how the
Upper Class or why the senior corporate executives request such huge salaries.
They don't just request a truckload of money and get it.

There is an independent salary and compensation committee which meets and votes on the compensation package for CEO and other top executives. This committee is composed of members of the Board of Directors which as you know are representatives of the stockholders.

Nothing illegal here.

Don't like what the compensation committee or the board approves next time go vote them out.

It may seem cool to get all that money fly those jets, whatever.

But remember they are on 24x7 and if an international company then 365. A deal is on the other end of the world and it doesn't celebrate Christmas, well, have Amazon on speed dial because you will miss it with your family.

Call from Asia to 1-2am, calls from Europe 4-5am in the morning.

Yea, fun.
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Old 11-17-2016, 07:03 PM   #43
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I had a BIL who was a senior exec for a major bank. Yes he made a great base pay & outstanding bonuses.

But he was never really 'off'. Even his relaxed time as 'on stage' - the right cottage at the right lake, the right clubs & activities, the right social life.

I'd hate it but his family thrived on it & have done well.
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:06 PM   #44
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Yea, fun.
I was not too concerned about how/why the salaries are approved or how difficult the job is or how hard the person works.

I was simply making the point that the CEO and other senior executives think long term when it comes to money.
They know that a 100 bucks today in the bank and set aside or saved for the future of his children will not be worth 5 dollars in 20 years
because of such a huge amount of money supply.

Instead of asking for a 100 bucks, they ask for a thousand bucks because they base their compensation packages on the money supply
and not the announced inflation rate.
-----

I once had a job where I had to travel the complete province of British Columbia and visit every single mine site.

I had a purchase order and every single living expense you could think of was paid for.
Even my dry cleaning and car rental. I had one hotel room booked for 6 months in Surrey BC as home base.
And was on the road all week and stayed at hotels all over the province.

I lived on the Airport Strip in Toronto for 6 months. I stayed at the top hotel and the place was so classy that there
was not even a hamburger to be found on the menu. All they had on the menu was steak and more steak.
Actually, I got tired of it and moved into a new hotel that had hamburgers on the menu.

I used to drool about having a job like that.

I was so awful lonely ..... that I used to look for hitch hikers on the road.

I would never take a job like that again.

Calm

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Old 11-17-2016, 10:14 PM   #45
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Quote:
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I was not too concerned about how/why the salaries are approved or how difficult the job is or how hard the person works.

I was simply making the point that the CEO and other senior executives think long term when it comes to money.
They know that a 100 bucks today in the bank and set aside or saved for the future of his children will not be worth 5 dollars in 20 years
because of such a huge amount of money supply.

Instead of asking for a 100 bucks, they ask for a thousand bucks because they base their compensation packages on the money supply
and not the announced inflation rate.
Calm
Restating this doesn't now make it true. You're positing an overly-simplistic approach to a multi-faceted process. I would argue that while the percentage is greater among the affluent versus the poor, few individuals, even at a senior level, truly understand the money supply and all its associated influences. I'm guessing they're concerned with more mundane things like stock options and parachute payments. Furthermore, it seems your assertions are simply based in ideology rather than fact and when all the noise is removed, ideology is really all that's left.
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Old 11-18-2016, 11:28 AM   #46
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So long as I know that you understood my point, I can live with that.

As to whether or not it is seen as being true or not, well that is up to each individual.

It is just my view or opinion. I never took a survey.

And, I thank you for making me aware of your view.

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