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Old 02-24-2017, 09:49 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potemkin View Post
How do you deploy VX without risking contact without risking yourself in a normal environment?
This is exactly what I was thinking when I heard the story.

I suspect the "suspects coated their hands with poison" was actually the suspects coating their hands with... what?... to protect themselves from the VX agent contained in the cloth they wiped his face with. If, in fact, it actually was VX.

If it really was VX I'm somewhat dumbfounded at the risk to the assassins. VX is highly skin absorbent unless they have some form that is not, but if it wasn't then how did it work so fast on the victim?
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:08 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by A.T. Hagan View Post
If it really was VX I'm somewhat dumbfounded at the risk to the assassins. VX is highly skin absorbent unless they have some form that is not, but if it wasn't then how did it work so fast on the victim?
KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - One of two women suspected of killing the half-brother of North Korea's leader with the highly toxic VX nerve agent also suffered its effects, Malaysia's police chief said on Friday.

"She was vomiting," Khalid Abu Bakar said in response to a question about whether the women felt the effects of VX, classified as a weapon of mass destruction by the United Nations.

Read more at http://www.thestar.com.my/news/world...GLX79339iLp.99
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:33 AM   #28
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It may be the NK hit squad that put this together was hoping the assassins would inadvertently kill themselves as well as their target.
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:46 AM   #29
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ion-holes.html

Quote:
Bruce Goldberger, a leading toxicologist who heads the forensic medicine division at the University of Florida, said some protective measures must have been in place if the women handled the substance without gloves.

'It's also possible that the toxin was encapsulated, then activated when applied to the skin,' he said before the latest police statement. 'As additional information is provided to the media by the police, it seems more likely that a new or modified chemical or biological agent was utilized in the attack.'

'The other chemical agents like sarin, tabun, those kinds of things, they're way below this. They're toxic, yes, but this is the king,' said John Trestrail, a U.S. forensic toxicologist who has examined more than 1,000 poisoning crimes.

He said an amount of VX weighing two pennies could kill 500 people though skin exposure.

He and other experts stressed the importance of having the results confirmed by an independent reference laboratory, especially given the nerve agent's rarity.
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:25 AM   #30
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don't forget the dark glove.

Quote:
snip>
The assassination plan would have been flawless from start to finish, if not for the multitude of closed-circuit television (CCTV) cameras positioned strategically throughout the {airport}...

CCTV footage of her appeared to show that she had on her left hand a dark-coloured glove as she walked briskly down to the taxi stand for her getaway

By the time she emerges outside, it has been removed, suggesting it may have been laced in poison...

http://www.nst.com.my/news/2017/02/212797/jong-nam-assassination-five-seconds-was-all-it-took-administer-poison-video
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:34 AM   #31
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It is hard to see what the Chicoms see in the guy. Now Little Norky is biting the hand that has fed it!
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:59 AM   #32
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'The other chemical agents like sarin, tabun, those kinds of things, they're way below this. They're toxic, yes, but this is the king,' said John Trestrail, a U.S. forensic toxicologist who has examined more than 1,000 poisoning crimes.
I would have said Flash or Blue-X were the kings but I get the point.
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:01 PM   #33
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The banned chemical weapon VX is considered by some experts to be the nastiest of the nasty nerve agents known to exist. With a consistency similar to motor oil, it lingers for long periods in the environment and even a tiny amount causes victims’ bodies to flood with fluids, producing a feeling of drowning before death.

So when Malaysian authorities announced Friday that VX was to blame for the Feb. 13 death of the North Korean leader’s exiled half brother inside a busy Kuala Lumpur airport, it raised nearly as many questions as answers.

First, with a substance so potent, how is it possible that the two women who allegedly attacked Kim Jong-nam with it could have survived? Second, given that particles can remain in the environment for possibly weeks after being released, why didn’t the airport undertake specialized decontamination measures to ensure the public’s safety?

“The other chemical agents like sarin, tabun, those kinds of things, they’re way below this. They’re toxic, yes, but this is the king,” said John Trestrail, a U.S. forensic toxicologist who has examined more than 1,000 poisoning crimes.

He said an amount of VX weighing two pennies could kill 500 people though skin exposure. It’s also hard to acquire and would likely have come from a chemical weapons laboratory, making it more likely that the attack was executed by a government.
What makes the chemical agent VX so deadly?
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:06 PM   #34
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HandShield Liquid Gloves?

http://www.natralus.com.au/our-produ...loves-original
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:40 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy View Post
It is hard to see what the Chicoms see in the guy. Now Little Norky is biting the hand that has fed it!

I think what NK has is A dynasty, which is a sequence of rulers from the same family, usually in the context of a feudal or monarchical system but sometimes also appearing in elective republics..
And as such Kim Yong-nam would be seen as heir apparent for the throne.

Why do media outlets purport him only as the "Playboy half brother" ?

Why not refer to Kim Yong-nam as the president of the Assembly Presidum and de jure head of state of North Korea since 1998.?

I think it's somewhat common to see those in power acting above all else. to protect their power And while not as obvious or direct as VX, isn't disinformation and fake news just a more subtle form of political assassination for the sake of power.

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Old 02-24-2017, 02:09 PM   #36
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KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - One of two women ... also suffered its effects, Malaysia's police chief said on Friday.

"She was vomiting,"
Ah, so there were cholinergic effects. So hard to figure things out when the media are so incomplete in their descriptions.

Treat exposed individuals quickly, you can help them. Wait, and the agent binds to its target indefinitely.
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Old 02-24-2017, 05:09 PM   #37
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Even with quick administration of atropine after the fact I would think this carried incredible risks for the two women. Could they taken it in advance? Does that even work?
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Old 02-24-2017, 07:03 PM   #38
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You can pretreat with pyridostigmine—then immediately D/C it and go to PAM and atropine upon exposure.

https://www.fda.gov/Drugs/EmergencyP.../ucm130342.htm

I've treated organophosphate intoxications. Bloody damn mess it is. It's not "give a shot and you're good!". You're administering at least three to four different meds, all with toxicities of their own, trying to give just the right amounts in the proper sequence, which are tough to determine, and knowing that if you get it wrong the patient is sure to suffer nasty effects, both short and long term. And, meanwhile, there is significant risk to caregivers from the same agents.

A shot of atropine and PAM in the leg might—or might not—mean survival in a battlefield situation, but without expert followup care, soon, disability or death are still highly likely, in my not particularly expert opinion.
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Old 02-24-2017, 08:21 PM   #39
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This whole affair has me wondering whether there are aspects to the MH370 disappearance that we are not being told. Like, was Kim Jong-nam supposed to be on that flight, or was it connected to him or NK in some other way? I read earlier that he has gone to Malaysia many times in recent years.

It also makes me wonder what he was doing in in Malaysia this time around. Reports say he was buddies with the former NK ambassador to Malaysia, who was recalled and murdered by the Norks a few years ago. So, why was he back there now without having that connection anymore? Who was he meeting there with?

Finally, is this connected in any way to alleged back-channel discussions between China and the US regarding NK in recent weeks? Did those discussions involve Kim Jong-nam somehow? If so, why didn't he have a security detail? I understand being inconspicuous but this seems like carrying it to an extreme.

Overall, based on the videos, he appears to be a low-key guy who doesn't want to call attention to himself. Even when he is obviously starting to suffer the effects of the VX. I can only imagine that at that point he knew something was horribly wrong.
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Old 02-24-2017, 08:47 PM   #40
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Sysiphus said ..

Quote:
This whole affair has me wondering whether there are aspects to the MH370
disappearance that we are not being told. Like, was Kim Jong-nam supposed
to be on that flight,
An interesting connection . He was seen in Malaysia and Indonesia around the
MH370 went down , it was also near the time his uncle was executed .

..
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Last edited by Ross; 02-25-2017 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 02-24-2017, 09:11 PM   #41
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Quote:
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It also makes me wonder what he was doing in in Malaysia this time around. Reports say he was buddies with the former NK ambassador to Malaysia, who was recalled and murdered by the Norks a few years ago. So, why was he back there now without having that connection anymore? Who was he meeting there with?

Finally, is this connected in any way to alleged back-channel discussions between China and the US regarding NK in recent weeks? Did those discussions involve Kim Jong-nam somehow? If so, why didn't he have a security detail? I understand being inconspicuous but this seems like carrying it to an extreme.
Well, he was "under the protection" of China. Not close, but it was understood not to *** with him or China would not be happy.

My guess was he was in reserve to take over if there was some uprising in North Korea and Kim Jong Nam was deposed.

As I have said in other posts about NK, we have to remember there has been 3 generations of NKs seeing the Kim family as gods.

That place is going to tear itself apart when Kim falls. I mean that TEOTWAWKI kind of situation. China knows this, US knows this, South Korea knows this, Japan knows this.

The transition will be have to handled very carefully or there will be 10s millions of deaths and 10s of millions more flooding into China and South Korea.

Kim Jong Nam falls, China rushes in to prop up NK, Kim Jong Nam is rushed in a provisional leader perhaps for life transitioning NK, perhaps to lead an orderly transition and merger with South Korea. (Like the merger of Germany after the wall fell.)
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Old 02-24-2017, 09:23 PM   #42
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I've treated organophosphate intoxications. Bloody damn mess it is.
If I may ask, what were the circumstances?
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Old 02-24-2017, 09:38 PM   #43
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Various. Worst by far was a vet tech who was treating animals (sheep, I think, but I don't remember) with a "plunge dip", kind of a long trough full of insecticide solution that you run the animals through. Some idiot left her to do the job by herself, the animals were uncooperative, and she ended up getting down in the tank with them and manhandling them through it for much, much longer than she should have (which would have been zero). No protective gear except for gloves. Very nice girl who was very sick.

Organophosphate insecticides have been phased out, but you'll still occasionally see some guy who found a can of something in a shed and decided to use it without knowing how to protect himself. Bad juju.
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Old 02-25-2017, 01:33 PM   #44
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If I may ask, what were the circumstances?
Most common is commercial insecticide I would guess.

http://patient.info/doctor/organophosphate-poisoning
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Old 02-28-2017, 09:33 AM   #45
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In other news...

Quote:
North Korea executes 5 with anti-aircraft gun

By L. Todd Wood - - Monday, February 27, 2017

North Korean leader Kim Jong-un executed five security officials by anti-aircraft gun recently due to “false statements” which were given to the North’s leader and caused him to be enraged.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-aircraft-gun/
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Old 03-01-2017, 10:02 PM   #46
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Yes you have to wonder whether those executions were related
to a degree of embarrassment about what is now unfolding .
Not to mention China now temporarily cancelling coal purchases .
Potentially a catastrophic outcome .

..
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Old 03-02-2017, 12:05 AM   #47
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organophophate insecticides are commonly used in Bangladesh agriculture and the poison of choice to commit suicide.

I do agree with Alan that those two young women from the entertainment industry were considered "one time use and throw away" assassins.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:18 AM   #48
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The only North Korean arrested over the airport assassination of Kim Jong-un's brother is freed due to lack of evidence, as Pyongyang claim Jong-nam died from a heart attack


North Korean Ri Jong-Chol is to be released from custody in Malaysia on Friday
Malaysian officials could not find sufficient evidence to charge in him connection to the assassination of Kim Jong-Nam
Ri was arrested days after Kim died following an attack at Kuala Lumpur International Airport as he waited to board a flight to Macau on February 13
Swabs of the dead man's face revealed traces of the VX nerve agent, a synthetic chemical so deadly that it is classed as a weapon of mass destruction
A North Korean official in Malaysia claims that Jong-Nam died of a heart attack
Indonesian Siti Aisyah, 25, and Doan Thi Huong, 28, from Vietnam, were charged with murder on Wednesday and could be hanged if found guilty


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...m-killing.html


North Korean Ri Jong-Chol (pictured) is to be released on Friday
after Malaysian officials could not find sufficient evidence to charge
in him connection to the assassination of Kim Jong-Nam.


Quote:
'He is a free man. His remand expires and there is insufficient evidence to charge him,' Apandi said. 'He has no proper [travel] documents so we will deport him.'
Curious. I'd bet cash money however he will soon be killed after he is sent back to North Korea.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:41 AM   #49
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Well I hope they do not fly him home . I would worry about putting
anti-aircraft gun target in a plane .

Oh wait , in his case it will probably be suicide by anti-aircraft gun .

..
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Old 03-07-2017, 01:36 PM   #50
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Malaysia And North Korea Are Heading Toward A Complete Diplomatic Breakdown

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...atic-breakdown


A North Korean embassy staff member asked Malaysian police if
he was allowed to leave the embassy grounds in Kuala Lumpur on
Tuesday. Malaysia banned North Korean citizens from leaving the
country after North Korea issued an exit ban for 11 Malaysian
citizens in North Korea.
Vincent Thian/AP


The rest at NPR.
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