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Old 02-11-2014, 11:44 AM   #1
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Default New Yorkers Pay Record Prices to Heat Homes in Winter Freeze

I remember when I got into the nat gas biz, and we used to watch wonderingly as nat gas prices into New York City hit ten times those in the rest of the country every winter. Why? No pipeline capacity.

Twenty years later, the problem is still there. "Environmentalists" have blocked any new pipeline construction, while leftist politicians like Cuomo refuse to allow fracking in the state, which would at least improve local supply and drop prices. Meanwhile, when they can get any heat at all in their squalid rent-controlled garrets, the poor of NYC are getting it from production by expensive heating oil—much, much dirtier than the cheap local natural gas they could be using.

Leftists, the champions of the underclass.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...er-freeze.html
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Old 02-11-2014, 05:31 PM   #2
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You have to pay the price for NIMBY.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:11 PM   #3
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So you are safely able to rule out transport monopolies ( rail ? ) and
government restrictions on road transport and/or storage ??

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Old 02-12-2014, 12:55 AM   #4
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Q:So, why does the price increase?
A:Because no one stores it.

As though natty had to be piped or shipped in only when it is needed and this is the reason for the increases.

Something is wrong in the logic.

Someone, somewhere is storing it.

Natty is not lettuce - it does not wilt.
Yeah it costs to store, but it can be stored.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:00 AM   #5
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NJ has humongous pipelines and storage facilities for natural gas within spitting distance of NYC. The natural gas pipelines run through the state - one big one parallel to Rt 1 - to storage facilities in Bayway, NJ. There's a skinny little river between Bayway and Staten Island, which is part of NYC. In the 1970's there was an explosion of an empty LNG tank that killed 40 workers. Since then there's been a moratorium on storing LNG in NYC (if an empty tank can turn a mile wide swampy area into a living inferno then think what a full pipeline could do in Manhattan). The population is too dense, the potential for a catastrophic accident too high to bring pipelines and storage tanks directly into the city. So, they will build more in NJ.

They're piping in more gas from the Marcellus fields in PA. http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=13591
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:23 AM   #6
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Humongous they may be, but not humongous enough, and the problem is longstanding—I began to read about it twenty years ago, and it was old then. The fight to improve infrastructure has been long and bitter, with the left being as obstructionist as possible every step of the way.

http://www.northeastgas.org/pipeline_expansion.php

Check out the "proposed pipeline" graphic.

In fact, all of New England suffers, and the plans to help are fascinating.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Plan...in_Maine_.html

Whoda thunk?

Note in the original post that the problem is not limited to nat gas; petroleum and refined product availability is similarly constrained, to the point that only distributors with rail access are able to supply their customers.
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Old 02-13-2014, 06:16 AM   #7
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The area used to depend on coal, dharma. There is a whole system of rail road tracks that connected the Northeast with coal mines in Pennsylvania. When I was a child half of our basement was a coal storage bin, and my job was to go down there before bedtime and put a few shovels full into the furnace so we'd have heat throughout the night. I remember how proud my father was when he converted to "modern" oil heat, complete with a shiny new furnace and sooo much space to reclaim. Most of our neighbors did the same. Oil was almost as cheap as coal but so much cleaner, and it was automatic! No one used natural gas because it was too expensive.

So the most densely populated urban areas in the country, areas full of minor fault lines, freeze and thaw heaving, deep rivers, and geography that is mostly solid rock - thought pipelines even for things as safe as drinking water were wayyy too risky. There was huge public opposition decades ago when the first LNG pipeline was laid from Texas to NJ. I was there on 911, and people were very worried there would be some sort of attack on the above ground, visible pipeline - that some genius decided would be best situated along the track under high tension wires.


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Last edited by flourbug; 02-13-2014 at 07:10 AM. Reason: who can type at 5 am?
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Old 02-13-2014, 11:51 AM   #8
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Yes it went from coal in the coal bin (which smelled of coal) shovelled in a few times a day and before bedtime, to oil, then to natural gas in Jersey.

You woke up to hot radiators and frost on the windows. Quite special Jack frost artwork overnite.

I still remember the sound of coal going down the chute into the basement coal bins.

It went the way of the junkman coming round, and the watermelon and fish man, because only the husband owned a car. The women were housebound except for the bus and walking.

LOL. Now I'm back to walking, public transport (excellent, 5 star service). Much better than I remember in the second world war when tires, gas, meat, sugar, clothes were rationed.
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:00 PM   #9
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We used to skate near a bay where the coal company kept their supplies.

That brings back childhood memories of the depression and second world war. You don't know you are living frugally, as long as you have food, are warm you don't care a hoot.

It was the parents who worried.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
You woke up to hot radiators and frost on the windows. Quite special Jack frost artwork overnite.
We woke up to a COLD house. If I washed my long hair before going to bed, I'd wake up and shake the ice out of it in the morning. Freeze dried hair.

My mother would be up first, stoke the furnace and then go into the kitchen and light the oven. Before the heat came up all the kids would run downstairs with our clothes in our hands to get dressed in front of the open oven door.

The coal trains ran through Elizabeth. My mother would tell Depression era stories about how kids would follow the trains picking, up lumps of coal that fell out of the hoppers as they slowed down to unload. No one could afford a load of coal but those few handfuls were enough to heat a single room in their house for a few hours.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:50 PM   #11
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But we only bathed once a week on a saturday in a claw footed tub. You didn't waste hot water, didn't waste anything. They used to tell us not to wash our hair more than once a week, oil was good for the hair, and I had long braids like some Swiss Heidie. Very European, my mother wore braids wound around for years, liike Irene Dunn , in I remember Mama,before going modern and getting it cut to a curly bob. Her later years she was a fashion plate.

Who wears aprons anymore for cooking, or uses flour sack towels for dishes.
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Old 02-13-2014, 11:58 PM   #12
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But

Who wears aprons anymore for cooking, or uses flour sack towels for dishes.
bless you Lilly.. I'm better off having met you..

And you are still way smarter than most..
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:43 AM   #13
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I often wear an apron around the house. I have a lot of pretty ones, and wear them even if it looks silly on top of a sweatshirt and jeans. It keeps them clean, and keeps the cat hair off of my clothes. One of the men delivering packages remarked that he hadn't seen a woman in an apron in years. Some things shouldn't go out of style.
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:59 AM   #14
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When my ex and I first moved into what had been his grandmother's house on the Baltic Sea it was January. The house was freezing cold, with drafty doors and windows that used single pane glass. There was one coal burning stove in the living room to heat the house. The other two couldn't be used. It took days to heat that house to a livable level. The first night was so cold that we slept under two feather comforters on top of each other. The cat was so cold that he couldn't sleep until we finally let him in under the bedding. We lived that way for 2 years, cooking down in the cellar, getting hot water from a boiler, and no sink to wash the dishes. Grandma used washing basins for dishes. I still have fond memories of that little house, although it was often a PITA.
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:12 AM   #15
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there is something I wanted to point out about Natural gas vs coal fired and Nuclear power plants.

A Coal fired plant can have 60 to 90 days of coal stored on site, Nuclear plants can go a year to 18 months between refuelings. But a NG fired plant is solely a "Just in time" operation.. Case in point was the winter a few years back, A hard freeze hit lower Texas, power plants experienced frozen piping systems and went offline, The Natural gas compressor stations for several major NG pipelines were in the blackout areas. Causing low pressures in the gas mains and curtailment of NG deliveries to the NG fired power plants not already damaged be the freeze, ie even more blackouts. The impact rolled all the way from Texas through New Mexico, Arizona, and to California.

~
The Spot price of Natural gas in HH Louisiana has more than doubled in two years.
What do you think the price will be once we start exporting LNG to China and India.
My bet is at least $9 per million BTu's or 4x the price it was in 2012.

What will the "fuel charge" be on your electric bills then??
these are the good times.

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Old 02-24-2014, 10:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny
The spot price of natural gas in HH Louisiana has more than doubled in two years. What do you think the price will be once we start exporting LNG to China and India? My bet is at least $9 per million BTu's or 4x the price it was in 2012.
I don't know. You may be right. Certainly seems reasonable that producers be able to sell their gas for something closer to world prices. Of course, liberals and environmentalists will squall that they aren't getting their gas at a "fair" price. They are welcome, in my mind, to freeze to death in the dark.
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:28 PM   #17
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I don't know. You may be right. Certainly seems reasonable that producers be able to sell their gas for something closer to world prices. Of course, liberals and environmentalists will squall that they aren't getting their gas at a "fair" price. They are welcome, in my mind, to freeze to death in the dark.
Ah, just like the Carter era.

I don't know about the gas markets but I was under the impression that there was a huge amount of natural gas that was not being harvested because of the "low" price. Exporting LNG should not increase the price in the U.S.
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Old 03-07-2014, 07:52 AM   #18
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Who wears aprons anymore for cooking, or uses flour sack towels for dishes.
I spied my neighbor, who is a doctor, cooking in his kitchen with an apron on the other night when I took the dog out. It made me smile. I'm not the only one.
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Old 03-07-2014, 05:11 PM   #19
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But then I rarely cook. Though I have a japanese apron and one 50's frilly thingee I picked up from the turn around table.

I am no longer even a part time housewife. Not my nature. I even remember when one neighbor didn't like that I didn't wear a housedress around the house as she did. I never was one to conform. I never pleased my sister in how I dressed, though I wore her hand me downs till I could pay for my own clothes. After that I dressed to please myself.

Around here I tried to grunge down for a while, now I am back to artist bohemian
.brilliant, bright colors in layers, like a parrot or a bird of paradise, so on and so forth, I look arty and get a lot of compliments, so I decided the hell with grunge.

I'm an artist, so what the hell. Lots of arty bohemians in town. I look like a respectable arty type since I have silvery hair.

Today brilliant turquoise overshirt over a peculiar pink lilacy polo, a flourite necklace in pale purples over the pink. Yesterday an white embroidered blouse on white over a white and black zebra scarf with a lilac boiled wool jacket. I now have a collection of boiled wool jackets in Easter egg colors. Everything for less than one polo shirt new.

Boiled wool jackets and coats are very warm and cosy and I've lived in cold water flats with no heat. So the bright colors make you look warm. A certain amount of how we cope is psychological. I sleep on sheepskin, I used to cover ottomans and my chairs in sheepskin to keep my back warm and wore sheerling coats in the winter. Here it isn't that bitter cold, though it can be a damp biting cold now and then..

I've lived in the cheapest of housing to very expensive and been happy everywhere. It all comes down to layers of clothing

If I lived in a cold water flat again, I would get an army sleeping bag for the lowest temps. The last cold water flat I painted the walls in murals to keep warm.

Last edited by lilly; 03-07-2014 at 05:27 PM.
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