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Old 05-26-2009, 09:37 AM   #26
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Thank you Sharon. pam
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Old 05-26-2009, 09:57 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by PureCajunSunshine View Post

My only experience has been with the dried, imported berries from the Sambucus nigra species of elderberry--the heirloom European variety. I have not (yet) tried any of the American varieties or the S. nigra cultivars. I would like to compare their potencies with the known efficacy of European elderberry! More potent? Less? The same?

Anyone know?
I have only used the imported dried berries for tincture and only when I am out of fresh/frozen berries from my cultivated bushes or from the wild (in my opinion these are the best and FREE!). I have had excellent results, far better than the tincture. My cultivated bushes are York and Nova if I remember correctlly.

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Old 05-26-2009, 01:44 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by PureCajunSunshine View Post
Please let me know how it works for you! You are using which species...?

Just a reminder,
Last time, I used whatever herbalcom used for dried. This time, I'll be using native elderberries. I started them from seeds given to me by a friend here in Oklahoma, saying they were from the "wild" ones that grow all over here. I got about a gallon off of it last year and look to get at least twice that this year.

The same year, I ordered three tree starts from Raintree Nursery: Korsor, Variegated, and, I think, York. The road crew came along and sprayed them, killing the York off completely. The Korsor had already produced some berries that I saved prior to spraying -- the plant itself died from the spray but I still have the seeds and am starting them again this year. The variegated somehow survived... barely. I moved it and it has been struggling along ever since due to Johnson grass trying to strangle it. It will be moved to a better spot this year.

So, this year's batch will be from the "wild" plants but, in a couple more years, I'll also have some from the variegated and Korsor varieties. (Want me to save you some seeds from any of them?)

Editing to add: The remaining two from Raintree are S. nigra while the one from wild seeds would be S. canadensis L. (according to OSU).

Edit #2: Since you're right in my neck of the woods, I can go ahead and start you some cuttings of the wild and variegated as well as start you some of the Korsor from seed if you'd like. Just holler.
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Old 05-26-2009, 09:03 PM   #29
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booger, Me,. me please on the wild cuttings,please, please! You have my address, send me yours and I'll sent some $$.
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:20 PM   #30
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I too would like to plant some cuttings but you may get more request that you have plants to cut.

Oh
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:35 PM   #31
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Do you guys want me to start you plants or do you want me to just mail out fresh cuttings and/or seeds?
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Old 05-27-2009, 01:05 AM   #32
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Boog, I'm not the gardener here. I'll check with him and let you know.

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Old 05-27-2009, 05:16 PM   #33
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I've only dug up already started root sprouts and transplanted them, gal. How hard is it to root a cutting? Just stick it in some water and it will do it's thing?
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:25 PM   #34
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Here's what OSU says about it:

Sources of Plants

Elderberry cultivars may be difficult to find due to rather limited demand. One-year-old plants are best; older plants can be used but are often less vigorous. If you wish to start your own plants from wild plants, elderberries are easily propagated from cuttings or by layering.

Elderberries can be propagated by hardwood cuttings. In early spring before budbreak, take 10- to 12-inch cuttings from live portions of the previous season’s growth and plant them 10 to 12 inches apart in rows, leaving the top bud exposed. Firm soil around cuttings and water as needed to retain a moist medium for rooting. Cuttings can be transplanted early the next spring.

Root cuttings of pencil diameter size, four to six inches long, may be dug in late winter before growth begins. Place cuttings horizontally in a pot and cover with one inch of light soil or soilless medium and keep warm and moist. A root cutting may produce two or three plants.


So, today, I started some of the Korsor seeds and still have some left. Over the next few days, when I get both hands free, I'll take some cuttings and/or dig up some root suckers and try to start those. I know the timing is off but, what the heck, it won't cost me a dime to try. If they do good, I can pack 'em in a bit of peat moss and ship them out (or drive them over the AR border to the closest person and they can catch a ride through the Arkie folks network). If not, I'll try again for winter as the above recommends.

Feel free to pester me for updates.
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Old 05-28-2009, 06:08 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Here's what OSU says about it:

Sources of Plants

Elderberry cultivars may be difficult to find due to rather limited demand. One-year-old plants are best; older plants can be used but are often less vigorous. If you wish to start your own plants from wild plants, elderberries are easily propagated from cuttings or by layering.

Elderberries can be propagated by hardwood cuttings. In early spring before budbreak, take 10- to 12-inch cuttings from live portions of the previous season’s growth and plant them 10 to 12 inches apart in rows, leaving the top bud exposed. Firm soil around cuttings and water as needed to retain a moist medium for rooting. Cuttings can be transplanted early the next spring.

Root cuttings of pencil diameter size, four to six inches long, may be dug in late winter before growth begins. Place cuttings horizontally in a pot and cover with one inch of light soil or soilless medium and keep warm and moist. A root cutting may produce two or three plants.



Handy dandy rooting tip: Willow tea contains natural hormones that are great for rooting cuttings. Any wild willow will do. Shave some willow bark into water, let it soak for a few days. Water the freshly made cuttings with this cold brewed tea. If you are in a hurry, bring the willow shavings and water to a very gentle boil (simmer) for ten minutes or so, let cool before straining. Roughly a handful of the shavings for a quart of water, is what I do.

Another good natural rooting hormone rich plant is kelp. I like to make a tea with that as well.
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Old 05-28-2009, 06:19 AM   #36
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So, this year's batch will be from the "wild" plants but, in a couple more years, I'll also have some from the variegated and Korsor varieties. (Want me to save you some seeds from any of them?)…

…Since you're right in my neck of the woods, I can go ahead and start you some cuttings of the wild and variegated as well as start you some of the Korsor from seed if you'd like. Just holler.

Thanks so much!!! For now, I’m mostly concentrating on seeds from the European variety, plus American. There's some growing here locally that I'll be taking cuttings from. If I can't get them to grow, I'm gonna holler, f'sure. Tankee, tankee!!!!!

(Variegated...is that the kind that is mainly bred for show? Could this be something like what GoatLady described as not being medicinal?)

Speaking of medicinal...I would love to hear how your medicinals made with all your varieties turns out!


Quote:

The variegated somehow survived... barely. I moved it and it has been struggling along ever since due to Johnson grass trying to strangle it. It will be moved to a better spot this year.

Picking your brain here ‘cause I also want to do some transplanting this year. How deep did you have to dig to successfully move it? And, how big was the plant? Is it a very deep rooting plant? How much of the ‘runner’ do I need to capture? I seriously injured my knee and cannot do any kind of digging or woodswalking right now, but may have access to some local transplants, if I can accurately describe to my non-gardening type friend just how far around and how deep to dig!
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Old 05-28-2009, 06:20 AM   #37
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You're welcome Pam!
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Old 05-28-2009, 06:29 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freelove View Post
I have only used the imported dried berries for tincture and only when I am out of fresh/frozen berries from my cultivated bushes or from the wild (in my opinion these are the best and FREE!). I have had excellent results, far better than the tincture. My cultivated bushes are York and Nova if I remember correctlly.

freelove
This is good news, f'sure!!!!

I have never made my syrup (yet) with fresh berries...

Could you please share your recipe?

TIA!!
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Old 05-28-2009, 07:15 AM   #39
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PCS, when I dug and transplanted in SD it seemed the runners were only about 6-8' below ground - not really digging at all. I used those long handled Lopers to sever the runner going back to the momma plant and just yanked the rest out of the ground. Re-planted at about the same depth. IIRC, the elderberry is classified a bush rather than a tree - not "tap" root, so it's shallow rooted anyway.
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Old 05-28-2009, 07:21 AM   #40
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PCS, when I dug and transplanted in SD it seemed the runners were only about 6-8' below ground - not really digging at all. I used those long handled Lopers to sever the runner going back to the momma plant and just yanked the rest out of the ground. Re-planted at about the same depth. IIRC, the elderberry is classified a bush rather than a tree - not "tap" root, so it's shallow rooted anyway.
How long of a runner is best for transplanting success? How big of a plant did you do?
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:43 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by PureCajunSunshine View Post
Handy dandy rooting tip: Willow tea contains natural hormones that are great for rooting cuttings.
Yep, I was just eyeing some of my willow the other day, thinking I needed to slurry up a batch for some projects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PureCajunSunshine View Post
(Variegated...is that the kind that is mainly bred for show? Could this be something like what GoatLady described as not being medicinal?)
http://www.raintreenursery.com/catal...ProductID=E051 I but nothing that is purely ornamental. LOL It does produce berries and is S. nigra. It may turn out to not be as productive as the wild or Korsor but I always figure mixing varieties is a good thing for poolination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PureCajunSunshine View Post
Picking your brain here ‘cause I also want to do some transplanting this year. How deep did you have to dig to successfully move it? And, how big was the plant? Is it a very deep rooting plant? How much of the ‘runner’ do I need to capture? I seriously injured my knee and cannot do any kind of digging or woodswalking right now, but may have access to some local transplants, if I can accurately describe to my non-gardening type friend just how far around and how deep to dig!
I just dug around about a shovel-width in radius and depth, nothing huge at all, for transplanting. They were maybe shoulder height at the time. I'm not sure how deep the roots go nor do I know the official recommendations for digging runners. I tend to just go with my gut for plants as I tend to have good instincts in that area.

Just a month or so ago, I dug up some suckers from the big wild plant taking over my allium garden. They weren't woody, they were fresh, green, soft, juicy stems. I whacked 'em with my shovel, sometimes just yanking them with my hands, mainly just trying to give me walking onions some elbow room. Some had a mere 1/4" of root, some had 3-4". It was a quick & dirty massacre. Then I looked up at some fairly fresh sloped dirt work that was sure to erode and thought, hm, may as well stick these in there to see if they take so theu could help hod the dirt. I stuck them in the ground a tiny bit, tossed a stone or two around each to prop them up, gave them a half gallon of water to drink, and walked away expecting them to die. Ha. 90% of them are out there doing well right now.
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Old 05-30-2009, 11:10 AM   #42
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Sharon,

I don't really have a recipe, I make it by feel. Make it exactly like your recipe as if you had reconstitued the dried berries. It is very much like making jelly only without a long hard boil, although one of the best batches I made was jelly that didn't completely set. I am going to try making a heavy sugar syrup and then gently simmering the elderberries in the prepared syrup to see how that works. I have added honey to some of my syrups and I really like that, though I didn't see any medicinal difference.

Basically I take the berries that I have and add water enough to bring out the juice. I add a little sugar to help the juice to flow. Cook slowly until the berries have given up their juice and then strain (I don't have a ricer, but wondered if this would work well). Return the juice to the pot the berries were cooked in and add sugar and a little water if needed to make a syrup and simmer slowly. You can add spices for their flavor and medicinal value. Cinnamon is good for diarrhea and tastes good. I make mine plain, but this is something I have wanted to try. Adding the syrup to a cup of spice tea is so delicious. I also want to try adding blackberry brandy to the syrup as the blackberry brandy is also a remedy for diarrhea.

Preserve as in your recipe.

Sorry this isn't more precise, but it is the way that I do it. It works well for me. Your recipe is so precise and easy to follow, just use that and proceed as if you had soaked your berries. It should be wonderful!

This is a great thread, one of the best elderberry threads I have seen. Thanks for starting it and keeping it going.

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Old 06-02-2009, 04:56 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booger


http://www.raintreenursery.com/catal...ProductID=E051 I but nothing that is purely ornamental. LOL It does produce berries and is S. nigra. It may turn out to not be as productive as the wild or Korsor but I always figure mixing varieties is a good thing for poolination.
I got to wondering 'bout this...I've read that two varieties are best for pollination and all that, but out in the wild...where there's just one wild variety going on, they seem to be doing their thing just fine without need for another variety. Does anyone know if this 'two or more variety requirement' rule applies only to cultivars?



Quote:

I just dug around about a shovel-width in radius and depth, nothing huge at all, for transplanting. They were maybe shoulder height at the time. I'm not sure how deep the roots go nor do I know the official recommendations for digging runners. I tend to just go with my gut for plants as I tend to have good instincts in that area.

Just a month or so ago, I dug up some suckers from the big wild plant taking over my allium garden. They weren't woody, they were fresh, green, soft, juicy stems. I whacked 'em with my shovel, sometimes just yanking them with my hands, mainly just trying to give me walking onions some elbow room. Some had a mere 1/4" of root, some had 3-4". It was a quick & dirty massacre. Then I looked up at some fairly fresh sloped dirt work that was sure to erode and thought, hm, may as well stick these in there to see if they take so theu could help hod the dirt. I stuck them in the ground a tiny bit, tossed a stone or two around each to prop them up, gave them a half gallon of water to drink, and walked away expecting them to die. Ha. 90% of them are out there doing well right now.

This is so encouraging!! Today, my neighbor brought ten smallish elderberry bushes that he dug for me. There's not a whole lotta root there and they're very wilted... I will be thrilled if they make it!

Now I just hafta figure out a way to keep the bears from getting the berries before I do...
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Old 06-02-2009, 05:14 AM   #44
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Thanks for your recipe!!!! Cinnamon! Good idea, that! Sometimes I'll add Ginger root to my concoction. In addition to being beneficial for nausea, indigestion, inflammation and pain...Ginger root is said to suppress the production of inflammatory cytokines.

Looksee:

http://autoimmunedisease.suite101.co...immune_disease


Recent studies show that ginger has strong antioxidant properties. In addition, ginger reduces inflammation by inhibiting prostaglandin biosynthesis, specifically cyclooxygenase-1 and cyclooxygenase-2. These effects make ginger comparable to those of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications although ginger does not cause the side effects characteristic of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications. Ginger also suppresses the immune system's production of proinflammatory cytokines and chemokines...









Quote:
Originally Posted by freelove
Sharon,

I don't really have a recipe, I make it by feel. Make it exactly like your recipe as if you had reconstitued the dried berries. It is very much like making jelly only without a long hard boil, although one of the best batches I made was jelly that didn't completely set. I am going to try making a heavy sugar syrup and then gently simmering the elderberries in the prepared syrup to see how that works. I have added honey to some of my syrups and I really like that, though I didn't see any medicinal difference.

Basically I take the berries that I have and add water enough to bring out the juice. I add a little sugar to help the juice to flow. Cook slowly until the berries have given up their juice and then strain (I don't have a ricer, but wondered if this would work well). Return the juice to the pot the berries were cooked in and add sugar and a little water if needed to make a syrup and simmer slowly. You can add spices for their flavor and medicinal value. Cinnamon is good for diarrhea and tastes good. I make mine plain, but this is something I have wanted to try. Adding the syrup to a cup of spice tea is so delicious. I also want to try adding blackberry brandy to the syrup as the blackberry brandy is also a remedy for diarrhea.

Preserve as in your recipe.

Sorry this isn't more precise, but it is the way that I do it. It works well for me. Your recipe is so precise and easy to follow, just use that and proceed as if you had soaked your berries. It should be wonderful!

This is a great thread, one of the best elderberry threads I have seen. Thanks for starting it and keeping it going.

freelove
Yes, I'm loving this thread, too!! Thanks to all who gifted it with posts.
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Old 06-02-2009, 07:10 AM   #45
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Sharon, 2 varieties are NOT a requirement for berry production BUT it seems to more than double the harvest with 2 different varieties especially on the bushes "downwind" They were bent tot he ground heavy with berries whereas the "up wind" one did okay but diddly in comparison. . Just my personal experience with elder in South Dakota.
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Old 06-02-2009, 10:30 AM   #46
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Sharon,

Yes, Ginger is a wonderful spice/medicine. We use it a lot. I once was working with an Asian lady and when someone on the photo set twisted their ankle very badly this lady made a compress of fresh ginger and applied it to the injury. It was amazing how the swelling went down and pain eased very quickly. We always take candied ginger on road trips for car sickness and any other tummy ills while traveling.

I used to make a liniment with ginger, hot pepper, and comfrey. It worked very well. I just chopped up some of each and covered it with alcohol.

I will try ginger in my syrup! Thanks for the idea.
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:57 PM   #47
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Ditto what GL said about having a couple of varieties. I've not had enough elderberry experience yet to say but I've found that to be a general rule in the world of plants, at least those recommended to have a second pollinator, so I apply it across the board when possible. (I'm not talking tomatoes or other similar situations where I save seed.)

Ooh, thanks for the reminder to plant my ginger. I keep forgetting.
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Old 06-04-2009, 02:30 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goatlady View Post
Sharon, 2 varieties are NOT a requirement for berry production BUT it seems to more than double the harvest with 2 different varieties especially on the bushes "downwind" They were bent tot he ground heavy with berries whereas the "up wind" one did okay but diddly in comparison. . Just my personal experience with elder in South Dakota.
Wow!!!! That is quite a difference!

But...I wonder if maybe because of more than one reason? Is elderberry pollination is a lot like the deal with corn pollination (via mostly wind)? The corn downwind of its buddies always has the prettiest and mostest ears...

I will try the two varieties thing (American + European), as well as a monoculture of one variety (European) on the 'back 40'...
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Old 06-04-2009, 02:38 AM   #49
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Quote:
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Ditto what GL said about having a couple of varieties. I've not had enough elderberry experience yet to say but I've found that to be a general rule in the world of plants, at least those recommended to have a second pollinator, so I apply it across the board when possible. (I'm not talking tomatoes or other similar situations where I save seed.)

Ooh, thanks for the reminder to plant my ginger. I keep forgetting.

jus' wondering out loud here...I wonder if cross pollination with an ornamental elderberry would lessen the potency of the resulting berries??? (I am guessing 'maybe', based on my limited knowledge in plant breeding.)
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Old 06-04-2009, 02:44 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freelove View Post

I used to make a liniment with ginger, hot pepper, and comfrey. It worked very well. I just chopped up some of each and covered it with alcohol.
I hafta try this liniment! Thanks!
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alcoholfree, elderberry, flu, preventing, syrup

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