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Old 01-10-2013, 09:16 AM   #26
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I'm not advocating for commons dharma, just pointing out the myth that private is cared for more often than not. That is not the case in terms of land ethic at all and it's not just a few examples.
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Old 01-13-2013, 01:03 AM   #27
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Some people let their cars get dirty. Some people trash them. But nobody—nobody—washes a rental car.

Ownership doesn't assure stewardship, but it makes it a very great deal more likely.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:03 PM   #28
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I wish land was given the same care and consideration as personal property but I think that's where the theory breaks down from "a very great deal more likely" to "sometimes at best". It's certainly more likely in wealthy countries with landowners who don't depend on their land's immediate resources for their day to day living...but even in the first world we have Times Beach and Love Canal and urban sprawl and mountaintop removal and http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ed-places.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States. Then too we like to export that behavior as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster.

Like I said before I think one possible answer is to find a way to monetize the critical environmental benefits that keep the planet a viable ecosystem for humans and everything else so that it has to become a part of the equation in our woefully short term decision making. How to go about that is the devil and his details.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:03 AM   #29
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The well-deserved last word is yours.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:20 AM   #30
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I'm done
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:13 PM   #31
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Apparently I was done, but Aldo was not, saw this trying to look up Goose Music from Sand County Almanac and had to come back to post

“One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on land is quite invisible to laymen. An ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business, or he must be the doctor who sees the marks of death in a community that believes itself well and does not want to be told otherwise.”
― Aldo Leopold, A Sand County Almanac
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:04 PM   #32
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It's Not a problem S4, we'll just start a new thread to discuss pipelines.

Hey What about a thread on the Seaway pipeline reversal project, driving up the price of WTI. relative to Brent crude's ??
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:37 PM   #33
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If they'd replace the ancient old cripples here in the midwest for natural gas and propane, I'd be a very happy camper as a volly firefighter. On existing freaking easements that is They like to blow up with regularity here, very nasty business and the most fear I've felt as a firefighter.
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:45 PM   #34
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""If they'd replace the ancient old cripples""

Sorry S4, say again >
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:58 PM   #35
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Just a bit of info, seemed somewhat relevant here. One of our major industries in town is an international gas/oil pipe manufacturer. Makes sense, as another is a steel mill. The pipe place is laying of 153 workers. Orders way down. FWIW
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:12 PM   #36
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Quote:
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""If they'd replace the ancient old cripples""

Sorry S4, say again >

Sorry: Panhandle Eastern and Williams Brothers.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:20 PM   #37
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rb. And perhaps that is a problem because we don't have an "ecological education"

wha?

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

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Sorry: Panhandle Eastern and Williams Brothers.
Sorry S4 I don't understand ., try using more words...
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:35 PM   #38
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rb. And perhaps that is a problem because we don't have an "ecological education"

wha?

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------



Sorry S4 I don't understand ., try using more words...
Mkay... The natural gas and propane pipelines that cross through my state are very old and prone to malfunction, rupture and explosive bursting. The last time we had ignition on a burst pipeline the flames shot so far into the night sky that people were reporting to 911 what they thought was a local fire from 4 counties away. The closest the fire engines could get was 700 yards.

They. Need. To. Be. Replaced.

Not sure how to enunciate any more clearly than that
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:37 AM   #39
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rb. And perhaps that is a problem because we don't have an "ecological education"

wha?

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------



Sorry S4 I don't understand ., try using more words...
I only posted to show orders were down, to the extent that it's affecting 153 families in my small city.
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:41 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Susan4
They. Need. To. Be. Replaced.
The feds and environuts make that very difficult.

Quote:
The National Wildlife Federation, one of the environmental groups that criticized Enbridge for the spill, said it was disappointed that the Michigan commission approved the permit. While replacing the pipeline is a good idea, the company shouldn't have been allowed to divide the project into segments, which enabled it to avoid a more stringent federal review, said Beth Wallace, the federation's Great Lakes community outreach adviser.

"There would have been more public input as well as a long-term environmental impact assessment" if the federal government were involved, Wallace said.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/science/a...cement-4241113

Don't replace them and have an accident, though, you get fined. It's a crappy business in a lot of ways.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:01 PM   #41
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Seems to me that if they replaced existing pipeline on existing easement the only thing to account for in an impact review would be soil disturbance affiliated with the project itself rather than having to account for all the initial impacts all over again, but the Feds and I nearly never see eye to eye LOL.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:05 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Susan4
“One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. ...”
Hey, it's not like no one else notices. I grew up in northeastern New Mexico. My great-grandfather used to tell my dad stories of the "grass being up to his stirrups" when he first rode into the valley where we lived (about 1875 or so). You can still find rocks that have old Indian markings for springs in the area.

Not any more. Grass grows in widely separated tufts, where it grows at all, and the land is crisscrossed with huge arroyos (deeply eroded gullies). The topsoil is gone, and invading junipers, without grass to displace them, suck up what water there is.

What happened? Most of the land was owned in common, largely in huge land grants administered by the villages (and later the state). People turned out their animals to extract as much as possible from the land before their neighbors did the same. By the 1930s, most of the damage was done. Grazing in the southwest was certainly the largest environmental catastrophe by area ever to befall the US, and most people don't even know about it; they think the arid semi-desert always looked that way.

Private ownership and fences preserve what is left: not much. I have fantasies of someday getting rich and going back to tear out the junipers and try to restore a few thousand acres to the way they were, but it would be a hundred year job.

What is owned in common is destroyed.


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Seems to me ...
Seems to me, too, but you're thinking logically. That's an error when dealing with government, and an even bigger error when dealing with faux-environmentalists.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:20 PM   #43
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Old Aldo was brilliant and way ahead of his time and very articulate, but he did come off a bit arrogant in that quote, I didn't mean to twist tails in that regard to you or Sonny. It was a poor choice.

I'm done, da-done-done now
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:21 PM   #44
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I'd forgotten that this thread evolved (devolved?) into a discussion of the tragedy of the commons, or the tragedy of the not-commons, as the case may be.

But, in any case, back to the pipeline/railway issue, which continues to mature by leaps and bounds while the politicians discuss the environmental impact of buggy whip manufacturing. Peter Tertzakian, of ARC Energy Group, recently wrote about the economics of rail:

Quote:
The math is simple: 10 unit trains a day equal one Keystone XL. Importantly, the train engineer's driving orders won't always follow the same track over and over again or be limited to a handful of select refineries. BNSF [Burlington Northern Santa Fe] claims it will be serving 50 oily destinations by the end of 2014. And BNSF is only one of what half a dozen major railroad companies are doing. Here, north of the border, Canada's CN and CP are well into the fray too. Producers will have a choice of refineries like never before, and vice versa."
As Chris Mayer notes, "the market has already innovated around the problem". Hopefully, this will induce apoplexy in a few bureaucrats! It's all good, assuming you're not a pipeline operator being driven out of business by corrupt (http://thisbluemarble.com/showthread.php?t=53532) socialists, of course.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:10 PM   #45
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Well, it takes steel for train cars and rails, too. Works for me.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:41 PM   #46
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Quote:
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I'd forgotten that this thread evolved (devolved?) into a discussion of the tragedy of the commons, or the tragedy of the not-commons, as the case may be.
Huff puff and snort

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Well, it takes steel for train cars and rails, too. Works for me.
Union Pacific just did road improvements to the tune $7K on my farm to get their crews in to fix a bridge, so works for me too by golly
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:53 PM   #47
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SCORE!
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Old 07-01-2013, 11:40 PM   #48
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WASHINGTON -- President Obama set a high bar for approval of the controversial Keystone XL pipeline, declaring for the first time that he would let the project go forward only if it does not “significantly increase” emissions of greenhouse gases.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...,2461643.story
So Which mode of transport would have a lower carbon footprint, An all electrically powered pipeline running essentially down the middle of the country's wind farms vs. 10 Diesel powered unit trains ea with 100+ tank cars per day?
The pledge came in a speech on climate policy in which Obama laid out a series of executive actions his administration will take over the next several years to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide and other gases that are major causes of climate change.

The most significant of those actions was a directive to the Environmental Protection Agency to develop by next June the first U.S. regulations designed to cut carbon dioxide emissions from existing power plants. The new rules, which would go into effect the following year, would probably require the closing of some coal-fired plants.

Because power plants emit 40% of the country’s carbon dioxide, cutting their emissions is the biggest-single way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The move is likely to boost electricity costs in some parts of the country.

Obama’s overall strategy leans heavily on executive-branch actions, an acknowledgment that the current Congress will not take action to address climate change. Obama said however that his plan does not preclude congressional action and that he would be willing to work with those who wanted to address climate change.

The announcement on Keystone would give Obama a reason to block the Alberta-to-Texas pipeline project should he decide to do so, but does not necessarily commit him. He left unspecified how big an increase in emissions he would consider “significant” and whose calculations of the impact he would most heed.

The State Department’s most recent environmental assessment of Keystone XL said that the unconventional, tarlike oil involved in the project emits 17% more greenhouse gases than conventional crude oil from the moment a barrel is extracted to the time it is burned in a car engine. The Environmental Protection Agency said the State Department’s analysis badly underestimated the emissions.
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:50 AM   #49
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power plants emit 40% of the country’s carbon dioxide
and the Obama family vacations emit the other 60%.
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:00 PM   #50
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WASHINGTON -- President Obama set a high bar for approval of the controversial Keystone XL pipeline, declaring for the first time that he would let the project go forward only if it does not “significantly increase” emissions of greenhouse gases.
And not a peep from the media. Trains are so much cleaner (and safer), after all. Ask the folks in Quebec!
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