VP Debate Thread

[Potemkin]

OK, people.

Will Biden rant, rave or put his foot in his mouth?

Will Palin say something incoherent or try the down home girl ploy?

Will the moderator favor Biden because she is a fan of Obama? Will she throw softballs at Palin to over compensate because people are watching?

Debate.

[Flint]

Interesting comments along these lines here:

I haven’t even left for St. Louis yet and I already feel like I’m in the spin room at Washington University. To hear the spinners’ spin, there is no chance that either Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware or Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska will utter a coherent sentence in the vice-presidential debate Thursday night.

The expectations aren’t just low; they’re in the Death Valley range. I’m not sure I remember such a vigorous race to the bottom, even when the world was coming to know a legally blond fellow named Quayle.

As Democrats in or near the Obama-Biden camp tell it, the concern is that the loquacious senator will talk too much, will be overbearing and condescending, too up-to-here with Beltway blather.

In the process, they say, he will make Palin’s lack of knowledge look not only acceptable but also somehow preferable to the know-it-all at the next podium.

“I just am afraid that Joe is not going to be able to shut up,” said one top Democratic fundraiser, who is close to the senator but who does not want to talk in public. “He keeps telling the debate prep people that he gets it, but I’m not sure he can control himself. He’s certainly never been able to in the past, has he?”

The downdraft on Biden is nothing compared with the hurricane of badmouthing from Republicans aimed at Palin. Some of it is strategic; some not. Some of it is comical; some of it has an air of desperation.

Much of it seems designed to explain in advance why Palin can’t do well—even though she got relatively good marks for her debate performance in the gubernatorial race in Alaska two years ago.

Here are some of the preemptively deflationary spin lines:

- Poor Sarah is/was over-prepared. This is the Karl Rove theory—that Steve Schmidt and the other debate briefers, who carted Palin off to Sedona for three days of prep work, filled her head with too many canned responses and a catalogue of facts. In the process, they stifled the “real” Palin—the Palin who lit up the night at the Republican convention in St. Paul last month. Of course that appearance was a carefully scripted speech. So it’s unclear whether that was the “real” Palin, or whether the “real” Palin will reveal herself Thursday night.

- She is the tribune of “Joe Sixpack America.” As such, Palin’s leadership qualities cannot fairly or appropriately be measured in a debate like this one. Palin herself has made this argument. Not only is it unfair to expect her to have Biden’s level of detailed knowledge; it’s the wrong way to judge her, since her most worthy quality is that she is “one of us.”

- The Media are biased: Look at the debate moderator. This is the latest pre-spin, though John McCain’s campaign itself is loath to get anywhere near the specifics. Debate moderate Gwen Ifill of PBS has a book coming out on Inauguration Day about the new generation of African-American political leaders. It’s called “The Breakthrough,” and one of the figures she focuses on is Obama. Conservative commentators such as Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity argue that the book presents a hopeless conflict, in that Ifill (whether she wants to admit it or not) favors Obama because a victory by him in November will boost her books sales. They may have a point, at least about appearances. But Ifill is highly respected, fiercely independent—and in the tank for no one. I asked a top McCain advisor what he planned to do about the situation and he had a one-word answer: “nothing.” But let’s see how the debate goes—and see if he sticks to his word not to bring it up. If the debate goes badly for Palin, my bet is that we’ll hear this one in the spin room Thursday night.

- She should have quit the race by now. This isn’t an intentional lowering of expectations by the McCain camp and its allies; rather, it’s a cluster of conservatives, led by George Will, who were mortified by her apparent lack of knowledge. Those feelings were only solidified by the governor’s devastating interviews with Katie Couric. At this point, it’s conventional wisdom that Palin isn’t ready for prime time. So it will be a form of victory if she merely makes it onto the stage in St. Louis.

[A.T. Hagan]

Does it really matter which of them wins the warm pitcher of spit?

.....Alan.

[Flint]

Does it really matter which of them wins the warm pitcher of spit?

It might, Alan, it might. At least, the polls are starting to show that:

1) Most voters are at least somewhat concerned about McCain's age
2) Most voters are at least somewhat concerned about Palin's experience and her performance so far
3) At least some voters are concerned about McCain's judgment in selecting such a person knowing the distressingly high probability she'll need to perform the duties of President

Conversely, Biden may be a blathering fount of gaffes and blunders as a public speaker, but:

1) He does have a long successful track record in Washington
2) Obama is young and healthy

So there is somewhat of a stacked deck. At least the more informed voters will be comparing the performance of an irrelevant bench-warmer with the performance of a very real potential President. McCain set it up this way.

[Potemkin]

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/...biden_balance/

Thursday, Oct. 2, 2008 09:45 PDT
Biden's difficult balance

I must say, I don't envy Joe Biden. The man already has a reputation of being long-winded and prone to gaffes, and now he's going up against Sarah Palin -- that scrappy, moose-huntin' hockey mom who might not know many Supreme Court decisions but is likely to know exactly how to make Biden look like an asshole.

Biden claims that reporters are in a "time warp" if they think he'd prepare differently to debate a woman than he would a man -- but that doesn't appear to be entirely true. The Wall Street Journal reports that he has been preparing by sparring against Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm, chosen not just because she "ran as an outsider and reformer" in 2002 and 2006 but because she's a sports mom and, yes, a former beauty queen. I'm going to bet Biden would have prepared a bit differently if McCain had chosen Joe Lieberman as his running mate.

Since Biden beats Palin hands down in matters like "experience" and "knowledge of the issues," his real challenge Thursday night is how to not come off like a dick (cf. George H.W. Bush debating Geraldine Ferraro in 1984). Biden might have difficulty with that regardless of the gender of his opponent, but the fact that Palin's a woman does put him in a bit of a double bind: It's not just that he can't appear condescending; he also can't seem like he's going too easy on her. Either one, the Journal correctly points out, would lead to accusations of sexism.

This brings up the interesting question of why no one seemed too worried about coming off like a jerk in front of Hillary Clinton (Obama's "you're likable enough" comment aside). Is that because Clinton, to quote Amy Poehler's impersonation of her, "has a pair" -- and wasn't actually thought of or treated as "female"? If that's the case, then could Palin bring an interesting new challenge -- a female candidate who emphasizes her femininity?

Maybe, but I think something else is happening here: Palin's gender is being used as a cover. Biden is going up against someone who, feisty and scrappy though she may be, is simply not as knowledgeable or prepared as he is, and if she were a man, Biden's task would be relatively easy. But the fact that Palin is a woman gives her a convenient defense: using accusations of sexism as a way to cover up her weaknesses. It's a tactic that might work in the short term, but in the long run would be damaging both to Palin and to America's perception of women's ability to lead.

[Renegade]

I wouldn't expect too many folks to change their minds based on this debate, no matter how it goes....

[Longrodz]

I think Palin will only appear partially knowledgeable/coherent. I also think if Palin "gets over" on Biden in any way during the debate, he will respond with a horrible gaffe. I also agree with Renegade, I don't think the VP debate is very significant.

[clutterbug]

Originally Posted by A.T. Hagan

Does it really matter which of them wins the warm pitcher of spit?.....Alan.

As usual, Alan is right but this should give Tina Fallen (sp?) some great material:

Palin’s new plan: Go after Biden
by Mike Allen 1 hour, 36 minutes ago

ST. LOUIS — Sarah Palin plans to go on the attack in tonight’s debate, hitting Joe Biden for what she will call his foreign policy blunders and penchant for adopting liberal positions on taxes and other issues, according to campaign officials involved in prepping her for tonight’s showdown.

The Palin camp is projecting surprising self-confidence in the pre-debate hours, despite the vice presidential nominee’s uneven — and, at some points, peculiar — performances in recent television interviews, the officials say. Top advisers to John McCain privately say Palin’s recent CBS interview was a borderline disaster, especially since it played out in several segments over several days. Tonight will be different, they say.

“This is going to finally put her back into a position where we see her like we saw her the first couple weeks,” a McCain official said. “She was herself. She was authentic, and people related to that. ... Tonight, she’ll get into a rhythm. You’re going to see her in a way that you haven’t seen her yet.”

By contrast, Biden plans what an aide calls "a just-the-facts, prosecutorial approach laying out the case against McCain and defending Obama." The aide said Biden will be "keeping the eye on the target, which is McCain."

It is hard to imagine higher stakes for a vice presidential nominee on the national stage. Palin wowed even her biggest skeptics with her spirited introduction to the American people at the Republican National Convention last month. It’s been downhill since then, however. She has been largely sheltered from unscripted moments on the campaign trail. And, when she has exposed herself to improvisation or tough questioning, Palin has been criticized for offering vague and at times unusual responses.

Palin advisers say that she remains just as popular with much of the Republican base as she was a month ago when her convention speech was hailed as a home run. But her ratings have eroded in polls since then, and the advisers see the 90-minute debate at 9 p.m. Eastern as a chance for a swift turnaround from what they call “negativity” in her news coverage.

From her debate playbook, as described by McCain officials:

— Throw Biden’s own words back at him.

“There’s going to be a lot of opportunities to use Joe Biden’s words against him — and not his gaffes,” an official said. “When he says raising taxes is patriotic, that’s a policy position. That’s what he believes. She’s going to use those against him.”

(On ABC’s “Good Morning America” last month, in explaining the need for the wealthiest Americans to pay more taxes, Biden said: “It's time to be patriotic ... time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut.”)

— Highlight past Biden foreign-policy positions as a way to undermine his core strength.

“He’s a celebrated foreign policy expert, but he has been wrong … dating back to the Reagan administration,” the official said. “There are opportunities there for her to jump in.”

One example that was provided was Biden’s reference to North Korea as “a paper tiger” on CBS’s “The Early Show” in 2006. (“I would rather have seen it do exactly what it did, demonstrate to the whole world that it is in fact a paper tiger.”)

Another example noted by the campaign was voting for defense cuts during the Reagan administration, and voting against the first Gulf war in 1991. (PolitiFact.com points out that he voted with the majority of Senate Democrats on the resolution.)

— Highlight places where Biden and Barack Obama have differed, including primary-season statements about Obama’s readiness to lead and his positions on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.

“He voted for the Iraq war, and Obama said that was poor judgment,” the official. “There are a lot of wedge positions between Obama and Biden.”

McCain officials say they are optimistic despite her falling credibility and likability in polls.

“Nobody who’s in the middle of a campaign takes a minute to panic,” an aide said. “Every single day, there’s an ebb and flow — that’s what makes these things exciting. She’s been there before. She’s done this before. She’s been successful. And we as a campaign expect she will rise to the occasion and be strong.”

Copyright © 2008 Capitol News Company, LLC.
Copyright © 2008 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.

[flourbug]

She's doing good. She's talking to mom and dad. "Talking straight to the American people." Scoring BIG points.

[Vog46_1999]

fb-

Both are doing well Biden is not flipping out (yet).
Palin does seem to be wandering off question with her answers a bit more than he is.


Best Regards

Vog

[Vog46_1999]

Biden appears to have far more intimate knowledge of foreign affairs that Palin - who is excoriating Biden on his votes against then for war funding.
But his knowledge of tribal differences in Iraq was very good.
My problem with this is that I don't have all the votes Biden's ever cast to verify what Palins putting forth.
I can't get over the fact that she keeps coming back to oil/Alaska on just about every question...
And the moderator is very good in spite of her "about to publish a book on Obama".....seems to be very independent.

So far they've avoided the "what did he/she just say"? Moment.

Vog

[Greta]

I caught the tail end. My question is; is this a debate or a tea party?

[Coyote]

I'm listening on the radio.

Palin is doing better than I thought she would. She has wandered a bit but not to bad. Her folksy/cutesy stuff comes off poorly on the radio. I don't know if the visual would help.

Biden sounds fine. He sounded aggravated for a while there on the topic of the wars. Palin was just repeating talking points. Biden sounded better in that exchange.

If I hear the word "maverick" one more time....

btw, I think Ifils did just fine.

[Fartacus]

Is John McCain or Tom Cruise running for president?

Could she say "MAVERICK" one more f'ing time?!


I'm am intentionally listening to it and not watching it so I won't be bewitched by her MILFishness and she sounds like a freakin' hick with a community college education.

[flourbug]

It's still going on. Right now Biden is making some serious points on "McCain is not a maverick on the important things".... gooooood speech there. He seems to be hitting his stride.

I'd say Palin took the first half and Biden is hitting some home runs now.

I agree about Palin and Alaska... bit over oiled there.

[Fartacus]

Originally Posted by flourbug

It's still going on. Right now Biden is making some serious points on "McCain is not a maverick on the important things".... gooooood speech there. He seems to be hitting his stride.

I'd say Palin took the first half and Biden is hitting some home runs now.

I agree about Palin and Alaska... bit over oiled there.

Didn't hear the first half.

In what I heard, she pulled out her trump card of being the Main Street candidate and he out Main Streeted her.

BTW, did you catch that she quoted "General McClellan," commander in Afghanistan/Army of the Potomac?

I suppose anything more than drooling on herself would have been considered a victory for her.

[flourbug]

{{{{DRUDGE POLL}}}} WHO WON THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE?...

BIDEN
22% 9,842
PALIN
76% 34,323
NEITHER
2% 897

Total Votes: 45,062

[flourbug]

CNN is dead even:

Who fared better in the vice presidential debate?
Sen. Joe Biden 0%
Gov. Sarah Palin 0%
Neither 0%

[Glockd]

Watching Geraldine Ferraro now. She calls it a win for both of them. Believes Gov. Palin did a good job.

[Tucker]

I loved it when Palin said that the toxicity on MAIN street was spilling over to WALL street. That was about 30 minutes in. Can she answer a substantive question directly, especially without relating it back to energy?

[Tucker]

Originally Posted by flourbug

{{{{DRUDGE POLL}}}} WHO WON THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE?...

BIDEN
22% 9,842
PALIN
76% 34,323
NEITHER
2% 897

Total Votes: 45,062

Ummm. Duh?

[flourbug]

Yep... I am switching between CNN, Fox, and MSNBC. As expected, Fox says Palin won and the others are calling it for Biden.

[caonacl]

I think Palin helped improve her image. Biden didn't have that burden. The result, IMO, is that McCain got hammered because Palin was busy shoring up her image, while Biden was ripping McCain apart.

[neilyoungfan]

CNN's poll (as of 10:50 pm):

Who fared better in the vice presidential debate?

Sen. Joe Biden 76% 11464
Gov. Sarah Palin 22% 3264
Neither 2% 369
Total Votes: 15097

[Coyote]

I think Palin helped improve her image. Biden didn't have that burden. The result, IMO, is that McCain got hammered because Palin was busy shoring up her image, while Biden was ripping McCain apart.

I agree and I think this is the last time we'll see Palin, outside of completely partisan rallies, for the rest of the campaign.