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Old 12-22-2010, 01:20 PM   #26
dharma
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I have Verizon FIOS. Very fast—like a cut rate T1 line coming into my house. Verizon trumpets their technical edge, but they have a little secret: they've stopped building out their FIOS network, because it doesn't make them much money.

I see zero problem with the infrastructure providers trying to monetize their network investments. It's called a free market, and that's always good. But: government is involved, and that's always bad.

Mixed feelings, mixed feelings.
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Old 12-22-2010, 02:47 PM   #27
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My feelings are not mixed at all. The government f's up everything it touches, and they are intruding into a vast new area of free speech and commerce they want to control and extract money from. We all know what the end result will be. It is my guess that as the government hoses up and taxes the internet, a 'shadow internet' or several of them that are beyond government control or regulation will appear.
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Old 12-22-2010, 04:59 PM   #28
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http://www.theopeninter.net/
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Old 12-22-2010, 06:31 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ought Six
The government f's up everything it touches
Only 99.99% of the time. The rest of the time, government is necessary. There needs to be a functioning court system to enforce contract law, and there needs to be a mechanism for protecting private property.

When I go to FB's URL and read this: "A free and open internet is the single greatest technology of our culture, and control should not be at the mercy of corporations." This is the worst and most dangerous kind of crap. Corporations own the servers on which the Internet runs, the fiber on which it is transmitted, much of the code which allows it to function. If they aren't allowed to charge for what runs on their systems, two things happen: we have effectively stolen their property, a moral problem, and they will stop maintaining and upgrading their systems, a practical problem. It is the tragedy of the commons, updated to cyberspace, and it is a bad thing.

There are thousands of musicians working day jobs right now because they can't make a living on their work, and that is because their intellectual property is being stolen from them every time someone downloads a song without paying for it. That is theft. It is wrong. It is promoted by a "free and open internet", and it steals not only from artists, but from all of us; how much wonderful music will we never get to hear because the only artists that can make a living any more are those with gigantic, elaborate live shows? A "free and open internet" dooms me to listen to Lady Gaga, and I very much do NOT approve.

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and they are intruding into a vast new area of free speech and commerce they want to control and extract money from.
Well, yes, this particular government is not one that I trust to protect property rights, quite the opposite, and there's the rub with this legislation. Mixed feelings, mixed feelings.
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:46 PM   #30
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http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/publ...-takeover.html

Repubs introduce bill to stop FCC regulation of the internet.
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Old 09-25-2011, 03:57 PM   #31
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http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/446455...fect-november/

U.S. Internet rules to take effect November 20
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:29 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dharma View Post
Only 99.99% of the time. The rest of the time, government is necessary. There needs to be a functioning court system to enforce contract law, and there needs to be a mechanism for protecting private property.
Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Nothing in there about regulating the practices of private companies, or any form of communication whatsoever. Obviously there was no internet back then; the closest cousin of the times would be the library. Nothing in there about regulating libraries either, that's covered later in the Bill of Rights. In other words, any regulation of the internet is forbidden and unconstitutional.

PS - you mention stolen intellectual property. Did you know that Jefferson was against trademarks and copyrights?
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:36 AM   #33
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Of course, following my logic, the FCC itself is illegal. As is the TSA, DEA, FBI, FAA, CIA, and the TF parts of the ATF (Amendment 21 provided for federal regulation of alcohol manufacture and sales). Really the only legal federal agencies are the DOD, the Post Office, the Treasury, the INS, and the IRS.
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:53 AM   #34
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Quote:
Corporations own the servers on which the Internet runs, the fiber on which it is transmitted, much of the code which allows it to function. If they aren't allowed to charge for what runs on their systems, two things happen: we have effectively stolen their property, a moral problem, and they will stop maintaining and upgrading their systems, a practical problem. It is the tragedy of the commons, updated to cyberspace, and it is a bad thing.
This is not about a fair profit. This is about maximizing profits.

Corporations also run telephone lines. Does this give them the right to control who you call, when you call, and what you can discuss? Corporations transport people on planes and buses and trains. Does this give them the right to charge more for black people than white when they pick up in an inner city, or charge more for whites in the suburbs? No. They are "common carriers". They transmit a thing - in the case of internet providers that something is data - from point A to point B. They are entitled to a fair price for that service. They are not entitled to discriminate.

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There are thousands of musicians working day jobs right now because they can't make a living on their work, and that is because their intellectual property is being stolen from them every time someone downloads a song without paying for it. That is theft.
Correct. It is theft, and as such it is a law enforcement issue.

dharma, you are really surprising me with your position on this. You'd be the last person I would expect to want to limit freedoms because some are abusing them.

The same bandwidth caps that will inhibit pirating will ALSO inhibit completely legal services. Forget YouTube and Flickr, think of how this will affect TBM - it would mean a complete redesign that eliminates the graphics and links on every page in order to minimize the size of our pages, it would be the end of our arcade, and our photo albums, and posting pictures and videos in posts. Not just TBM, ALL forums. The internet, which is well on it's way to an interactive magazine type format, would be thrown back to all the attractiveness of a page of straight text. The initial response may be, So what? The content is still there. But let me assure you it is the ever more complex GUI that has made the internet mainstream, and removing that will cause mass desertion. People are here because it is FUN, and interesting, and enlightening. Take that away and all of the people making money through commerce on the internet will lose their 'foot traffic'.

Your musician friends are going to have to adapt and change their marketing strategies with the times. Tethering the rest of the world to 1960 is not the solution.
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