TN School District Tells Coaches Not to Bow Heads During Prayer

[Dreamweaver]

We lose a little more of our freedoms every day.
Football coaches in Sumner County, Tennessee, are in trouble for bowing their heads during a student-led prayer.

http://www.wsmv.com/story/15538258/p...pate-in-prayer

[Ought Six]

There should be no religion in government, including government-run schools. The solution is simple; close all government-run schools and go to a pure voucher program.

[Catbird]

There should be no organized team sports in government funded, taxpayer supported schools either, but I guess that's another topic.

[Twoolf]

Fer cryin out loud. They are not hurting anybody except a bunch of self appointed gaurdians of what's "Right". If someone can not respect somene elses beliefs and shut up and be quiet for 20 seconds, this country is in major trouble. I don't pray, but I dont think I have the right to tell someone they cant, just as they have no right to force me too. This friggin country has too many people who are easily "offended". And 06, I would remind you that the First amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion (National religion -re Church of England) or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". There is nothing there prohibiting invocations, schools, courthouses etc, etc, etc. People need to get over themselves.

[Ought Six]

Originally Posted by Twoolf

Fer cryin out loud. They are not hurting anybody except a bunch of self appointed gaurdians of what's "Right". If someone can not respect somene elses beliefs and shut up and be quiet for 20 seconds, this country is in major trouble. I don't pray, but I dont think I have the right to tell someone they cant, just as they have no right to force me too. This friggin country has too many people who are easily "offended". And 06, I would remind you that the First amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion (National religion -re Church of England) or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". There is nothing there prohibiting invocations, schools, courthouses etc, etc, etc. People need to get over themselves.

A government employee (a school coach) bowing his head for Xn and only Xn prayers during the performance of his job is the raising the Xn religion above all others by a representative of government. That is wrong. He can exercise his religion as freely as he wants, but not in his official capacity.

What I have a big issue with is politicians, especially the Prez, praying over America into the cameras. If that is not bringing religion into government, then I am not sure what is.

[Twoolf]

A government employee bowing his head during a prayer is showing RESPECT for other people. I am sure they would do the same whether or not the invocation is Christian, Jewish or Muslim. I would.

And I repeat, there is NOTHING in the first amendment that mandates that expressions of faith be excluded from official government functions. All this crap about separation of church and state is bullshit. Folks demand that the second amendment be taken literally, but take free exercise in interpreting the first. What hypocrisy.

[Ought Six]

Originally Posted by Twoolf

A government employee bowing his head during a prayer is showing RESPECT for other people. I am sure they would do the same whether or not the invocation is Christian, Jewish or Muslim. I would.

And I repeat, there is NOTHING in the first amendment that mandates that expressions of faith be excluded from official government functions. All this crap about separation of church and state is bullshit. Folks demand that the second amendment be taken literally, but take free exercise in interpreting the first. What hypocrisy.

A government official elevating Xn prayer and only Xn prayer above all others is inappropriate. It is a defacto illegal government endorsement of Xnity alone. Just as I am strict about the Second Amendment, I am equally strict about the First. There is no hypocrisy whatsoever in that.

[Glockd]

A Govt Employee is not THE Government. Hell, I was taught WE were the Govt. As a former Govt Employee, I imagine I did alot of stuff in my "official" capacity that alot of folks would have issue with. And that included prayer, particularly when folks were shooting at me, or the helo I was on suffered a hydraulic leak whilst soaring above the briny deep.

[jane333]

Originally Posted by Twoolf

A government employee bowing his head during a prayer is showing RESPECT for other people. I am sure they would do the same whether or not the invocation is Christian, Jewish or Muslim. I would.

And I repeat, there is NOTHING in the first amendment that mandates that expressions of faith be excluded from official government functions. All this crap about separation of church and state is bullshit. Folks demand that the second amendment be taken literally, but take free exercise in interpreting the first. What hypocrisy.

I can just imagine an Islamic prayer at that sports event. There'd be no end of complaints from Christians who are offended.

Why not just save the praying for church?

[Ought Six]

Originally Posted by Glockd

A Govt Employee is not THE Government.

So far as the law is concerned, yes, he is.
----------

Hell, I was taught WE were the Govt.

'A government of the people, by the people and for the people' does not make every citizen an agent of the government. Only employees of the government (bureaucrats, LEOs, elected officials, etcetera) have the actual authority to act in the name of our government, as you know.
----------

As a former Govt Employee, I imagine I did alot of stuff in my "official" capacity that alot of folks would have issue with. And that included prayer, particularly when folks were shooting at me, or the helo I was on suffered a hydraulic leak whilst soaring above the briny deep.

And if someone filed a complaint or a lawsuit, action would have been taken to correct that. Just because nobody did and it slid around the rules and law does not make it legal.

[Auburn Boy]

Good grief! They are letting them pray, what's a minor extension of bowing one's head???

Fer cryin' out loud..,

---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

Originally Posted by jane333

I can just imagine an Islamic prayer at that sports event. There'd be no end of complaints from Christians who are offended.

Why not just save the praying for church?

+1 +1 +1 +1

[Ought Six]

Originally Posted by Auburn Boy

Good grief! They are letting them pray, what's a minor extension of bowing one's head???

Fer cryin' out loud..,

The problem is the 'slippery slope'. Once it is okay for a government employee to participate in an Xn prayer by bowing their head when the prayer is being said by students, that says participation in religious activities in their official capacity is okay. It sets a legal precedent that allows the camel's nose under the edge of the tent. The courts have followed a policy of keeping a strict separation between government and religion to prevent this very thing. It seems petty, but the once you open that door in the wall of separation, it is very, very difficult to close it, and soon you have no wall at all.

Again, the real solution is getting the damn government out of the business of running schools. Governments should be limited to *governing*.

[SSG Rex]

Because of course, only Christians bow their heads while other people pray.

[Coyote]

It sounds like the kids were OK in saying a prayer. No law against that from the way the article reads.

So now comes the idea that one man can tell another how to hold his head.

Frankly, I'll hold my head any way I want, at any time I want and anyone who presumes to try and control me to that degree can go to hell.

[Mousehound]

Originally Posted by Ought Six

The problem is the 'slippery slope'. Once it is okay for a government employee to participate in an Xn prayer by bowing their head when the prayer is being said by students, that says participation in religious activities in their official capacity is okay. It sets a legal precedent that allows the camel's nose under the edge of the tent. The courts have followed a policy of keeping a strict separation between government and religion to prevent this very thing. It seems petty, but the once you open that door in the wall of separation, it is very, very difficult to close it, and soon you have no wall at all.

Again, the real solution is getting the damn government out of the business of running schools. Governments should be limited to *governing*.

This slope has been slid down before IMO with "In God We Trust."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

[Potemkin]

Originally Posted by Mousehound

This slope has been slid down before IMO with "In God We Trust."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

And a lot of people aren't happy with it , or with adding "under God" to the Pledge etc. thinking they do violate the Establishment Clause and are working to change it.

[Mousehound]

There are so many references to "God" in our officially used anthem, Pledge of Allegiance, etc., and it is all deemed OK because it was all reduced to rote reference. If it is, then the U.S.A. has a meaningless motto, Pledge of Allegiance, and the anthem needs to be rewritten. I don't belong to any kind of church, but I see nothing wrong with openly standing to the fact that official gov. institutions have been, and may still be flavored by Christianity. People who do not want to associate with this have the right not to partake in such things, but they don't have the right to force me not to partake in them, or to respect (honor) them.

[Ought Six]

Mh:

.... but I see nothing wrong with openly standing to the fact that official gov. institutions have been, and may still be flavored by Christianity.

Xnity can favor or not favor whatever it wants. It is when the government or its representatives favors any one religion over all others that we get into First Amendment issues.

[Exodia]

Acknowledging or repsecting someone's religion or prayer is quite different from endorsing or favoring.

[Glockd]

I am an individual, I had a job, but, that does not mean that you own my beliefs or can control them. I am not a robot. That means I do not blindly follow orders, and since you are all thankful that me and my kind would not do so, you can piss off. The door swings both ways, dont like it, tough shit.

If I want to pray, I will, if I dont, I wont. I will respect anothers belief, but I will not change my own to suit you.

Try to force me.

[Brihard]

I believe that the 'harm', such as it may be perceived, of a team coach bowing his head during a prayer is much less than the imposition upon individual liberty of telling him he can't. The establishment clause balances against the free exercise clause, and I don't think a credible argument could be made that the actions of a coach has anything to do with 'an establishment of religion'.

[Glockd]

Ah thank you Bri. You are absolutely correct. Anyone that believes a HS Football coach bowing their head in prayer or out of respect for anothers religion constitutes Govt. endorsement of any religion needs their head examined. That is like telling me, or any of my fellow Marines that we could not bow our heads at the funeral of my squad leader, Sgt. Felts USMC, killed on duty when I was on Guam. He was Catholic, my dogtags read Protestant. I still prayed. In uniform.

The Constitution states that the Govt shall not establish a national religion, or force the adherence of those religious beliefs on the people, but nowhere does it bar the practice of religion by anyone employed by the Govt.

[Ought Six]

Originally Posted by Brihard

I believe that the 'harm', such as it may be perceived, of a team coach bowing his head during a prayer is much less than the imposition upon individual liberty of telling him he can't. The establishment clause balances against the free exercise clause, and I don't think a credible argument could be made that the actions of a coach has anything to do with 'an establishment of religion'.

Existing case law says otherwise.

[jane333]

So, what do we do about prayers to Allah at the next football game? Or a 30-second vague silence to acknowledge, respect or honor Zeus?

[Exodia]

Originally Posted by jane333

So, what do we do about prayers to Allah at the next football game? Or a 30-second vague silence to acknowledge, respect or honor Zeus?

Why do WE have to do anything about a group of people exercising free will?

If a group of students, on their own, wanted to do any of those things, and they were sincere about it, I'd certainly honor it with solemn respect.