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Old 04-19-2014, 01:48 PM   #1
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Default Fracking Will Help Slow Global Warming

You heard it here first, folks. Nice to see the mainstream start to catch up with this forum.

http://ameripac.org/articles/frackin...-un-scientists
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Old 04-19-2014, 06:23 PM   #2
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Since there has been no global warming for 16 years then fracking has already stopped it. Oh no, fracking is creating another ice age.
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Old 04-20-2014, 06:35 PM   #3
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Good point. Hell, it was perfected in Texas and Oklahoma, by oilmen, who probably don't even vote Democrat! It's just evil through and through, one way or the other!

I admittedly haven't claimed that fracking will slow anthropogenic global warming, since I think that is far from a proven hypothesis, much less a measured phenomenon, but I have been very clear that any reduction of coal use is a good thing, and nat gas appears to be the only thing that can measurably impact coal burning, given that we as a society appear to have given up on nuclear energy. If you believe AGW exists, then you must also believe that the burning of coal is the primary cause.
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Old 04-21-2014, 08:17 AM   #4
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I don't think coal production and usage globally have declined at all, actually China is consuming coal hand over fist. So you could make the case that increased coal usage of the last 30 years has cured AGW (particulate in the atmosphere from loosely regulated China??).

I know in the US, as NG has pushed into the power market, the coal producers have just looked off-shore.

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Old 04-21-2014, 11:31 AM   #5
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I don't think coal production and usage globally have declined at all
Of course they haven't, nor will they. Coal is cheap and ubiquitous. But nat gas has capped the rise in coal use in the second-highest energy user in the world, and will slow it elsewhere. Ultimately, clean coal will be an answer, but it's still a long way off.

"Fracking will help slow global warming" was tongue-in-cheek on my part. Perhaps I should have made that more explicit. Next time, a smiley.
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:29 PM   #6
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I got what you were saying (as my comment on increased coal use curing AGW was tongue in cheek as well), but I was trying to point out, that since we in the US tend to be bit insular, that a change in coal/natural gas consumption in the US does not happen in a vacuum.

The people who make their livelihood mining coal won't simply shut down operations because coal use for power declines in the US. While we sit here and smugly tout our "greener" power generation, that same coal is being sent to be burned somewhere else, likely in a place who cares a lot less about CO2 than we do.
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:56 PM   #7
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You are very right.
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Old 04-22-2014, 02:33 PM   #8
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The Boom: How Fracking Ignited the American Energy Revolution and Changed the World

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Old 10-05-2014, 05:01 PM   #9
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Environmentalists Should Love, Love, Love Fracking

http://dailysignal.com/2014/10/04/en..._medium=social
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Old 10-05-2014, 10:56 PM   #10
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The Boom: How Fracking Ignited the American Energy Revolution and Changed the World


And then what? Even the EIA, an optimistic bunch, predicts that US shale oil production will peak around 2017. According to my math, that gives us about 3 years until the party starts winding down, and nature in all her bounty takes away the punchbowl. Not exactly a second lease on life. More like an insignificant pause.

Peak crude in 2005 or 2008? Perhaps not, in retrospect..although it may be close. Perhaps the peak is put off until around 2016 or 2017. Ultimately, it's the blink of an eye, though, and won't materially matter.

Oil was $20/barrel about a dozen years ago. Now we think it's cheap at $90. Wonder why? I don't. It's because the era of cheap oil is over. And the era of intermediately-cheap oil will end soon enough too.

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Old 10-05-2014, 11:18 PM   #11
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And then what? Even the EIA, an optimistic bunch, predicts that US shale oil production will peak around 2017. According to my math, that gives us about 3 years until the party starts winding down, and nature in all her bounty takes away the punchbowl. Not exactly a second lease on life. More like an insignificant pause.

Peak crude in 2005 or 2008? Perhaps not, in retrospect..although it may be close. Perhaps the peak is put off until around 2016 or 2017. Ultimately, it's the blink of an eye, though, and won't materially matter.

Oil was $20/barrel about a dozen years ago. Now we think it's cheap at $90. Wonder why? I don't. It's because the era of cheap oil is over. And the era of intermediately-cheap oil will end soon enough too.
Dang, that sounds bad but after considering the previous "peak" predications all I can do is yawn.

Somehow, I think the peak oil futurism is connected to the global warming sooth saying in a psychological way.
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Old 10-06-2014, 12:03 AM   #12
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Dang, that sounds bad but after considering the previous "peak" predications all I can do is yawn
That sounds like emotional Pollyanna-ism in lieu of thought.

What's the quibble with peak oil, that you doubt oil is finite? Well, it is, my friend. It's a fossil fuel. That's means it gets harder to find at some point, and eventually harder to produce. It's logic most basic. It's based on definitions.

Or is the quibble with the timing? Like "yeah we'll peak but not for 500 years so who cares..." Because that argument, while more interesting, has no support among any geologist I've ever heard speak to this. Nor is it supported by the data. Nor is it supported by the fact that oil has gone from 20 to 90 in the last dozen years, far faster than inflation.
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Old 10-06-2014, 03:18 AM   #13
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My personal thoughts on 'fossil oil'. Funny stuff oil. It floats on water. Yet it is found way down deep in the ground far below any known fossils. Russia is extracting oil from seven kilometres down. Gas is trapped below impervious rock. How did the fossils get through the rock? Oil is basically hydrocarbons. Lot of that stuff on the sea floor. Shells of little dead creatures that lived in the sea. The oldest sea floor is only about two million years old. Yet life as we know has existed for over five hundred million years. So where has the sea floor gone? Subduction zones. The sea floor is driven deep under the continental land masses. There it gets melted down and lots of chemicals released. CO2 up volcanoes etc.
Thus my belief is oil is recycled life from the sea. It is NOT going to run out while there is life on this planet. There are reports of old oil wells slowly filling up again. That word - 'slowly' - is worth noting. If extraction exceeds production oil WILL become harder to obtain but by then science will have found alternatives.
The reason I believe this is that I worked in the oil fields of the Arabian Gulf back in the late 1960s and there was a blind panic that oil would run out in 25 years! And now? We have more oil, world wide, than ever.
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Old 10-06-2014, 02:34 PM   #14
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And then what? Even the EIA, an optimistic bunch, predicts that US shale oil production will peak around 2017.
Shale resource development in the rest of the world has not even begun—and there's lots of shale.


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Thus my belief is oil is recycled life from the sea.
Current thinking is that coal is ancient plants, primarily ferns, and oil is ancient algae. The gigantic algae mats present on earth for that period of time are not replicated on earth today (we wouldn't like the world much if they were!).
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Old 10-08-2014, 03:49 AM   #15
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... and oil is ancient algae. The gigantic algae mats present on earth for that period of time are not replicated on earth today.
That gave me a couple of interesting hours, thanks. Can't find any definitive explanation but my guess is that algae was marine algae, seaweeds and stuff? Guessing again this would be shortly after continental break up which provided maximum coastal area. Again guessing fresh water algae would be in the same environment as produced the coal fields? It seems oil is not found near coal.

Please post any links that point to oil being produced from fossils.

Most interesting link yet: Petroleum in a Nutshell

Last edited by BuilderBob; 10-08-2014 at 04:17 AM. Reason: add link
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Old 10-08-2014, 07:27 AM   #16
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http://www.fao.org/docrep/w7241e/w7241e0h.htm

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...into-crude-oil
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Old 10-08-2014, 08:33 AM   #17
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The first link is WAY out of date.

The second link is all good stuff. Looks like a viable process for producing oil from algae in the laboratory. What is needed is a cost analysis for production "based on a 1988 worldwide oil production rate of 64.2 million barrels per day." (from 1st link)

No explanation on how fossilisation of the algae produces 'sweet' crude.
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Old 10-08-2014, 08:40 AM   #18
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"Sweet" refers to the sulfur level of the oil, and may be completely independent of the source material and be a function of the geology of the area.

https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/prep...06-77_0086.pdf
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:02 PM   #19
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Fascinating paper, thank you Exodia. A bit (ahem) over my payscale but I would like to show something I find interesting...



It seems the little critturs down there eat half or more of our oil before we get our hands on it.

This reminds me of incidents like the Torrey Canyon oil disaster off the UK coast.

Quote:
Use of detergents on the intertidal zone of England's resort beaches proved deadly to grazing organisms. The most effective treatment of oil-tainted water and beaches was discovered to be nature's storm action combined with metabolic breakdown by microorganisms.
And then there was the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010...

Quote:
Remote-sensing scientists recently demonstrated that these “invisible” oil slicks do show up in photo-like images if you look in the right place: the sunglint region. This pair of images includes a wide-area view of the Gulf of Mexico from the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) on NASA’s Terra satellite on May 13, 2006 (top), and a close up (bottom) of dozens of natural crude oil seeps over deep water in the central Gulf.
There you see oil on the sea surface BEFORE BP HAD THAT ACCIDENT. In this case they were carefull not to point out that microorganisms in the sea were scoffing the stuff.

The point I'm trying to make is that oil seeping up to the surface is well known and there are many species of microorganisms that have evolved to consume that oil in the sea and under the ground. If these organisms are consuming roughly the same quantity as man extracts why haven't the oil fields dried up?
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Old 10-08-2014, 07:46 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by dyrt
Dang, that sounds bad but after considering the previous "peak" predications all I can do is yawn

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That sounds like emotional Pollyanna-ism in lieu of thought.

What's the quibble with peak oil, that you doubt oil is finite? Well, it is, my friend. It's a fossil fuel. That's means it gets harder to find at some point, and eventually harder to produce. It's logic most basic. It's based on definitions.

Or is the quibble with the timing? Like "yeah we'll peak but not for 500 years so who cares..." Because that argument, while more interesting, has no support among any geologist I've ever heard speak to this. Nor is it supported by the data. Nor is it supported by the fact that oil has gone from 20 to 90 in the last dozen years, far faster than inflation.
Amazing . . . what is happening in the world that so many people that can write can't read. Why do you quote me before your little smart-ass strawman monolog?

For comprehension challenged minds, my comment was about the proven false apocalyptic peak oil "predictions" that have only been recently surpassed by the global warming sect of the same holy church.

I had some fried quibbles last night. Tastes like chicken.
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Old 10-09-2014, 08:42 PM   #21
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The first link is WAY out of date.
When we're talking a couple hundred million years, Bob, I doubt another 20 or 30 makes much difference. I wasn't trying to demonstrate the modern production of oil from algae, but that the building blocks for oil are in algae. Does that make better sense?

Try this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/sc...3oil.html?_r=0
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Old 10-10-2014, 02:09 AM   #22
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Apologies dharma. By out of date I meant for consumption and new discoveries. As I've mentioned I worked in the then Persian Gulf oil fields over 50 years ago. Your latest link is very interesting, thanks. Raises more questions. The discussion is limited to the Gulf of Mexico yet oil and gas are found in many areas of the world. Off the top of my head the crustal formation of the gulf is very young in terms of life forms of the planet. Also very interesting is the need for heat of up 210F to ensure chemistry of the oil. These are very specific requirements for a substance available over a wide area of the planet. Will try and find information of the Russian discoveries which I believe are very deep. Comparing geology with the gulf would be interesting.
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Old 10-10-2014, 12:42 PM   #23
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You are almost certainly better versed in geology than I, Bob, but it is my understanding that a lot of that algae was in the Tethys Ocean, prior to the breakup of Pangaea, or Gondwanaland, or whatever the term du jour is. But, in any case, that would explain at least part of the wide distribution of petroleum resources. It is my understanding that due to crustal motion, faulting, upthrusts, etc., that only a tiny fraction of the earth's original endowment of petroleum remains; the rest was lost to evaporation, consumption by bacteria, and dilution.
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Old 10-10-2014, 02:06 PM   #24
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Hah! What I know about geology wouldn't fill half a postcard. I provided navigation services such that the oilmen could find the holes they drilled on the sea bottom if any particular hole looked like in might be productive after analysis. No arguments against anything you say just that this would seem to put some limits on where the oil might be found and trying to compare Middle East production against the Gulf of Mexico. Need to discuss this with a pukka geologist before I can take this any further.
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