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Old 10-29-2014, 07:04 PM   #1
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Default Kratom

I have just heard of this day before yesterday. The research on the internet so far is about 50/50.
We would like to know what is the most effective source to take for pain. We understand there is no addition to it.
Also, we'd like to know all side affects. Pretty well anything you know about the herb. First hand information would be great. But I'll take whatever you know about it, and say Thank you!
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Old 10-29-2014, 07:26 PM   #2
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The DEA's take on it:

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/dr...nfo/kratom.pdf

---------- Post added at 06:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21050173

Quote:
Curr Top Med Chem. 2011;11(9):1165-75.
Mitragyna speciosa, a psychoactive tree from Southeast Asia with opioid activity.
Adkins JE1, Boyer EW, McCurdy CR.
Author information
Abstract

Mitragyna speciosa Korth. (Rubiaceae) is a tree that is commonly found in Southeast Asia. Leaves from this tree have been traditionally been used for both their stimulant properties as well as an opium substitute. The tree/leaves are currently illegal in four countries, but is currently legal and widely available in the United States. To date over 40 compounds have been isolated from the leaves. The major alkaloid found within the crude extract, mitragynine, has been the subject of many pharmacological studies. In addition to the pharmacological studies, two total syntheses of mitragynine have been published as well as general structure-activity relationships (SARs) with respect to opioid activity.

PMID:
21050173
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


---------- Post added at 06:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 PM ----------

The European Monitoring Centre's take:

http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publicat...rofiles/kratom

Pharmacology

Kratom preparations contain several phytochemicals in varying ratios rendering their proper pharmacological evaluation difficult. Human clinical studies are scarce.

In general, the effects of kratom in humans are dose-dependent: small doses produce ‘cocaine-like’ stimulation while larger dosages cause ‘morphine-like’ sedative-narcotic effects.

After taking a few grams of dried leaves, the invigorating effects and euphoria are felt within 10 minutes and last for one to one and a half hours. Kratom users report increased work capacity, alertness, sociability and sometimes heightened sexual desire. The pupils are usually normal or very slightly contracted; blushing may be noted. In one of the few human clinical experiments, a 50 mg oral dose of mitragynine produced motor excitement, followed by giddiness, loss of motor coordination (positive Romberg’s test), and tremors of the extremities and face. For regular kratom users, loss of weight, tiredness, constipation, and hyperpigmentation of the cheek may be notable side effects. The pharmacological mechanism responsible for stimulant activity is unclear.

Kratom taken in large, sedating doses corresponding to 10–25 g of dried leaves may initially produce sweating, dizziness, nausea and dysphoria but these effects are shortly superseded with calmness, euphoria and a dreamlike state that last for up to six hours. Contracted pupils (miosis) are noted.

Mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine, the two alkaloids mainly responsible for the effects of kratom, are selective and full agonists of the μ-subtype opioid receptor (MOR). The receptor agonist effect of kratom alkaloids is antagonised by the opioid receptor antagonist naloxone. In addition, 5-HT2a and postsynaptic α2-adrenergic receptors, as well as neuronal Ca2+ channels are also involved in the unique pharmacological and behavioural activity of mitragynine.

In animal studies, the antinociceptive and cough-suppressant effects of mitragynine were comparable to those of codeine. In mice, 7-hydroxymitragynine was several times more potent analgesic than morphine even upon oral administration.

Kratom is slightly toxic to animals. Mice chronically treated with 7-hydroxymitragynine developed tolerance, cross-tolerance to morphine and withdrawal signs that could be precipitated by naloxone administration.

Regular kratom use may produce dependence. The withdrawal symptoms in humans are relatively mild and typically diminish within a week. Craving, weakness and lethargy, anxiety, restlessness, rhinorrhea, myalgia, nausea, sweating, muscle pain, jerky movements of the limbs, tremor as well as sleep disturbances and hallucination may occur. Treatment, if needed, may include dihydrocodeine-lofexidine combination, non-steroidal antiinflammatory agents, antidepressants and/or anxiolytics.

The metabolism of mitragynine in humans occurs via hydrolysis of the side-chain ester, O-demethylation of the methoxy groups, oxidative and/or reductive transformations, and the formation of glucuronide and sulfate conjugates. In a man who fatally overdosed propylhexedrine and kratom, the postmortem mitragynine concentrations ranged from 0.01 mg/kg to 1.20 mg/l.

The consumption of kratom concomitantly with other drugs can provoke serious side effects. In fact, adverse drug interactions involving kratom tea taken with carisoprodol, modafinil, propylhexedrine or Datura stramonium have been reported. A fatal case in the United States involved a blend of kratom, fentanyl, diphenhydramine, caffeine and morphine sold as a herbal drug.
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Old 10-29-2014, 07:31 PM   #3
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This is literally the first I've heard of it...
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Old 10-29-2014, 07:33 PM   #4
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Me too
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Old 11-11-2014, 05:28 PM   #5
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DH has continued his research with this herb. He ordered a selection of samples of it and has been experimenting with how it reacts on him. He said first of all you have to measure out the powder and mix it up and drink it with juice. He didn't have juice so he used sugar and water. He says it takes forever to mix it. He also said it was really dreadfully bitter.
He reports some makes you tired. Some makes you alert. Some makes you happy and relaxed. He said some have varying degrees of pain relief. He said the pain relief is so good with no side effect of the prescription drugs that he is still testing but really likes a couple of them for pain. I finally had a brain wave and got him some OJ.
He has now moved from 1/2 gal. of OJ to 1 gallon. My concern now is an overdose of OJ.

He said it works so well he does not need the prescription drug. Part of the problem with the prescription drug was it was becoming no longer effective. The research continues.
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Old 11-11-2014, 07:02 PM   #6
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THANK YOU! I've never heard of this but I'm definitely going to do some research!
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Old 11-11-2014, 07:05 PM   #7
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I am as well
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:37 PM   #8
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Anyone know/heard anything about Blue Lotus (Nymphaea caerulea)?
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Old 12-02-2014, 03:19 PM   #9
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OK, so I made some Blue Lotus tea. I drank two cups. No down side or deleterious effects, but also not much help with the knee pain. I may try Kratom next, although I understand that has some major side-effects
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Old 02-24-2017, 06:23 PM   #10
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I thought I remembered a thread on this.

Just ordered some today. Most of it is going to be used to help daughter through a detox (yes, AGAIN), a bit of it is for me to try. I ordered two different strains. I'll let you know how it goes. I'm trying it for pain relief.



---------- Post added at 02:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 PM ----------

Here's a forum on it. I haven't had a chance to read through any threads yet, maybe later today. After a handful of ibuprofen and a nap.

http://www.ilovekratom.com/forum/index
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Old 02-24-2017, 06:24 PM   #11
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Good luck. Both with your pain & your daughter's detox.
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Old 02-24-2017, 06:29 PM   #12
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One thing I do know is, it can be (probably is) addictive. Shouldn't be used every day and if you do, cycle through different strains every day.

---------- Post added at 02:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------

Thank you, Sue.
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Old 02-24-2017, 06:34 PM   #13
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This page gives some info on the different strains.

https://www.kratomscience.com/strain...ts-and-dosage/
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Old 02-27-2017, 04:43 PM   #14
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My package is out on the mail truck somewhere. I intend to try it this evening, after I take a nap. I have a headache and achy hips today so we'll put this stuff through its paces.

I'll give you a real time report as it happens.
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Old 02-27-2017, 09:01 PM   #15
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Ok, here we go.

This is one ounce of Maeng Da Thai White Vein and four ounces of Maeng Da Thai red vein, both powdered. I got the Maeng Da because I read it was one of the best to use for detox. Red vein is supposedly more sedating, white vein more energizing. Green vein somewhere in the middle. Maeng Da red vein is one of the more expensive strains, it was about $60 for four ounces. White vein was $12.50/oz. I think Bali and Borneo strains from the same vendor were running about $9/oz, those are supposed to be good too. So many strains and all are different, it was kind of confusing for a newbie. This one is more sedating and gives good pain relief. That one is more energizing. On and on.



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Old 02-27-2017, 09:13 PM   #16
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There are a few ways you can take this stuff. DDs friend who used it to detox dumped a tablespoon in his coffee a few times a day. You can cap it up in gelatin capsules, I hear it's really bitter. You can whisk it into juice. White grapefruit juice (I think any citrus to a certain degree, but especially grapefruit) is supposed to potentiate kratom, same with opiates, something about suppressing an enzyme that causes you to metabolize the stuff, so it stays in your system longer at a stronger level. I've never tried it and I'm certainly not going to try it a first time with this stuff, since I don't know how it's going to affect me. You can dump the powder in your mouth and then some water, swallow and then rinse with more liquid. They call this 'wash and toss'. lol Maybe I'll try this way, seems quick and easy. Hope it's not too bitter.

---------- Post added at 05:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------

According to this list, 2 1/2 grams is roughly equal to one Vicodin, which is my limit for painkillers. 1-3 tsp is suggested for novice users. I have a little scale I'll see what that weighs out to.

---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:10 PM ----------

Oops. The list.

https://drugs-forum.com/threads/rela...piates.234395/

---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

Oh yeah, I've been doing a LOT of reading up the last few days. Many people say that with kratom "less is more". You get a better effect from a lower dose.

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Old 02-27-2017, 09:24 PM   #17
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A tsp that wasn't leveled off (but close) weighed 2 1/2 grams. Dumped it back in, got the 1/2 tsp spoon and measured out 1 gram each of the red and white vein. I don't want to go to sleep, neither do I want to be up half the night doing whatever.

This is what roughly 2 grams or about a measuring teaspoon looks like



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Old 02-27-2017, 09:31 PM   #18
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If you do the toss and wash method, I suggest you don't do more than 1/2 tsp at a time and be very careful. It's so finely powdered that it's easy to maybe inhale a little if you aren't careful. I nearly choked. It's not all that bad tasting, really. Peyote buttons taste MUCH worse. How many of you can say you've ever tasted peyote? lol

The powder smells a little like henna powder, I love the smell of that stuff.

Ok, now the wait. I've read it takes anywhere from 10-15 minutes to an hour to feel any effects.

cough cough ack

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Old 02-27-2017, 09:37 PM   #19
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I'll just post these things as I find them. Here's one about dosage.

http://kratomcrazy.com/blog/2015/08/...age-of-kratom/

The reason I didn't do any more than 2 grams for my first dose is because I read in a couple places that Maeng Da, which is the strain I got, can be a little intense for a novice.
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Old 02-27-2017, 10:04 PM   #20
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Well, I feel really nice. And my hips don't ache anymore. I feel pretty much exactly as if I'd taken a Vicodin. I guess it
worked faster than taking a pain pill because it's not compressed with fillers.
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Old 02-27-2017, 10:26 PM   #21
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Funny. I read in a couple places that kratom can make you blush. It's true, my face is a bit pink.
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Old 02-27-2017, 10:36 PM   #22
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Here's another page looks interesting, I haven't read it yet.

http://ensobotanicals.com/kratom/

---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:35 PM ----------

Oh yeah, kratom is best taken on an empty stomach. I did and it did not make me feel queasy at all.
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Old 02-27-2017, 10:40 PM   #23
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I hope you have good luck with it. For me, Maeng Da worked like Vicodin for a few weeks. But then, a few weeks maybe a few months in, two or three capsules didn't work anymore, and I needed 6 capsules or 8 capsules. And at that dosage it was making me anxious and my BP went up. Eventually, I gave it up entirely because of the side-effects.
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Old 02-27-2017, 10:55 PM   #24
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Hadn't heard pf this before so I Googled it and found this:

Is this correct? It shows a publication date of Sep 1, 2016 @ 10:57 AM 74,059 views



The DEA's Crazy Kratom Ban Dresses Pharmacological Phobia In Scientific Garb

At the end of this month, kratom will be illegal throughout the United States thanks to the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), which this week announced that a ban is necessary “to avoid an imminent hazard to public safety.” The way the DEA reached that conclusion provides an illuminating window on the prohibitionist mindset, which dresses pharmacological phobias in the garb of science.

Kratom is a pain-relieving leaf that acts as a stimulant or a sedative, depending on the dose. But the most important thing to know about kratom, if you want to understand the DEA’s reasoning, is that it’s not from here. Kratom comes from a tree, Mitragyna speciosa, that is native to Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Myanmar, and Papua New Guinea. It has gained a following in the United States only recently, hawked by online merchants and head shops as an herbal medicine, “dietary supplement,” or legal high. As far as the DEA is concerned, the fact that people in other countries have used kratom for centuries to ease pain, boost work performance, and wean themselves from opiate addiction counts for nothing. All the DEA needs to know is that our shores have been invaded by a foreign drug that is increasingly popular among Americans as a home remedy and recreational intoxicant. From the DEA’s perspective, that is intolerable, regardless of the drug’s hazards or benefits.

If you think I’m exaggerating, consider how the DEA decided that kratom meets the criteria for “temporary” placement in Schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act, the law’s most restrictive category. The DEA has at least two years to make that designation permanent, which it almost certainly will do after going through a somewhat more elaborate process of bureaucratic self-justification. For the time being, it need only consider three factors: “the substance’s history and current pattern of abuse; the scope, duration and significance of abuse; and what, if any, risk there is to the public health.”

That exercise is easy, because according to the DEA all use of kratom is abuse and the substance has no benefits. That means any hazards associated with kratom pose an unacceptable risk to public health, even if they compare favorably to those associated with legal intoxicants, over-the-counter remedies, and prescription drugs.

“Kratom is abused for its ability to produce opioid-like effects,” the DEA says. “Kratom is misused to self-treat chronic pain and opioid withdrawal symptoms, with users reporting its effects to be comparable to prescription opioids.” So if you use kratom to relax, relieve pain, or get off heroin, that’s abuse.

“Kratom is an increasingly popular drug of abuse and readily available on the recreational drug market in the United States,” the DEA says. So if you use kratom for fun, that’s abuse.

Any medicinal use of kratom has to be abuse, the DEA figures, because kratom has not been approved for any indication by the Food and Drug Administration. Nor has the government approved kratom as a recreational intoxicant or a utilitarian stimulant (possibly because no such regulatory categories exist for new drugs), so those uses are also beyond the pale.

The DEA’s blinkered thinking is especially glaring when it frowns on kratom as a substitute for heroin. “Kratom has a history of being used as an opium substitute in Southeast Asia,” it says. “Especially concerning, reports note users have turned to kratom as a replacement for other opioids, such as heroin.” So if a heroin addict switches to a less dangerous drug, that is “concerning,” even if the switch enables him to taper off his drug use and ultimately stop completely. In other words, even using kratom to reduce drug abuse is drug abuse.

Kratom leaves (Image: Shutterstock)

With logic like that, it’s a cinch for the DEA to conclude that mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine, kratom’s main active components, have “a high potential for abuse.” In the DEA’s view, kratom’s only potential is for abuse.

Since the DEA assumes there is no rational, morally acceptable reason to use kratom, it does not need to muster much evidence that kratom is intolerably dangerous. That’s a good thing for the DEA, because the evidence indicates that kratom is less hazardous than drugs that are legally used for similar purposes.

“Serious toxicity is rare and usually involves relatively high doses (more than 15 g) or coingestants,” says a 2014 article in the journal Pharmacotherapy by clinical pharmacologist Megan Rech and four of her colleagues at the Loyola University Medical Center in Maywood, Illinois. “Fatalities typically involve coingestants…. Withdrawal has been described as less intense but more protracted than with prescription opioids.”

A 2015 literature review in the International Journal of Legal Medicine offers a similar assessment. “Kratom is considered minimally toxic,” write Florida forensic scientist Marcus Warner and two co-authors, although they add that “research evaluating its toxic effects on humans is limited, with the vast majority of studies involving animals.” Warner et al. say “withdrawal symptoms are generally nonexistent to mild, even for heavy users” and note that two Florida counties “have deemed kratom not ready for regulation due to the lack of information demonstrating the substance as being unsafe or hazardous.”

Warner and his colleagues concur with Rech et al. that there’s little evidence kratom is lethal by itself. “Although death has been attributed to kratom use,” they write, “there is no solid evidence that kratom was the sole contributor to an individual’s death. In most documented instances, mitragynine was detected in combination with other drugs.”

Pascal Tanguay, a program officer for PSI, an international health promotion organization, in Thailand, was more emphatic in a 2013 interview with MinnPost. “There’s never been a single death associated with kratom,” Tanguay said. “People have been chewing this for thousands of years with no cases of overdose, psychosis, murder, violent crime. Never in all of recorded history.”

Although the DEA claims there have been “numerous deaths associated with kratom,” it does not cite any deaths where kratom was the only factor. The agency cites 14 deaths “reported in the scientific literature,” plus 16 others that “have been confirmed by autopsy/medical examiner reports,” meaning that “mitragynine and/or 7-hydroxymitragynine were identified in biological samples.” It is not safe to assume, as the DEA does, that every person who ever died after consuming kratom died because he consumed kratom. But even if you overlook that logical fallacy, a grand total of 30 “deaths associated with kratom” in the whole world over the course of centuries is hardly “numerous,” and it pales beside the number of deaths associated with myriad legal drugs. Alcohol, for instance, is implicated in about 88,000 deaths a year in the U.S. alone, while 28,000 deaths were attributed to heroin and opioid painkillers in 2014.

The DEA plays a similar trick when it cites a report on kratom-related calls to poison control centers that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention published in July. From January 2010 through December 2015, the DEA notes, “U.S. poison centers received 660 calls related to kratom exposure.” It adds that “during this time, there was a tenfold increase in the number of calls received, from 26 in 2010 to 263 in 2015.” Reported symptoms included “agitation or irritability, tachycardia, nausea, drowsiness, and hypertension.”
Kraken-Kratom

(Image: Kraken Kratom)

An average of 110 cases a year may sound like a lot, but it’s not. It represents about 0.004 percent of the 3 million or so calls received by poison control centers each year. By comparison, exposures involving analgesics accounted for nearly 300,000 calls in 2014, while cosmetics and personal care products, cleaning solutions, antidepressants, and antihistamines each accounted for more than 100,000. The DEA not only fails to put the number of kratom-related calls in perspective; it does not mention that two-thirds of the cases were deemed “minor” or “moderate,” while only 7 percent (eight per year) were described as “life-threatening.” The CDC noted a single death in six years, “reported in a person who was exposed to the medications paroxetine (an antidepressant) and lamotrigine (an anticonvulsant and mood stabilizer) in addition to kratom.”

These numbers are pretty reassuring, especially since the DEA says “millions of dosage units” are imported into the U.S. each year. But the agency draws the opposite conclusion, saying “such alarming quantities create an imminent public health and safety threat.”

The DEA makes at least one valid point about the risks of using kratom, which is available from many different vendors, some more reliable than others. “Since abusers [i.e., users] obtain kratom…through unknown sources,” it says, “the identity, purity, and quantity of these substances are uncertain and inconsistent.” Does anyone outside of the DEA think prohibition will take care of that problem?







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Old 02-27-2017, 11:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dietrich View Post
I hope you have good luck with it. For me, Maeng Da worked like Vicodin for a few weeks. But then, a few weeks maybe a few months in, two or three capsules didn't work anymore, and I needed 6 capsules or 8 capsules. And at that dosage it was making me anxious and my BP went up. Eventually, I gave it up entirely because of the side-effects.

From what I've been reading, it's best to cycle through different strains every day and that will help keep you from building up a tolerance. Maeng Da one day, Bali the next, Borneo the next, back to Maeng Da, etc.
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