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Old 07-16-2017, 12:40 PM   #1
Potemkin
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Default War with North Korea

Good non-US article about possible outcomes of the North Korea conflict heating up.



North Korea: a terrifying glimpse into what war with Kim Jong-un's military would look like

Robert Kelly is an American living in South Korea. As is well known to the more than 25 million viewers who've watched the hilarious video of his children bursting into his BBC interview, the Korea expert has a young family.

While Kelly is sceptical that tensions over North Korea's nuclear program will lead to war, he and his wife regularly discuss what they will do if there is an attack by the North on Busan, where Kelly teaches at the city's university.

More http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politi...13-gxadej.html
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Old 07-16-2017, 07:39 PM   #2
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Personally, I'm getting kind of sick of hearing about how "terrifying" war with NK would be. It missed the point. There are two choices: war now, or soon have a Monarchy led by a maniac with a nuclear arsenal and ICBM's capable of hitting the U.S. and/or Japan.

It's not "war or no war" as is often implied by these dumb headlines about how "terrifying" war with NK would be. We all know war is bad. D-day was pretty horrifying too. We fought Hitler because the alternative was worse.
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Old 07-16-2017, 07:58 PM   #3
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The article Pote posted did a good job of pointing out both sides of the issues.

And Dietrich points out that it's not *if* there's a war with NK but *when*.

Sooner or later the Dork of Nork will actually believe he's basically immortal and will sacrifice his nation, it's people and a goodly portion of the Korean Peninsula to satisfy his ego. And in sheer numbers of soldiers / cannon fodder, he does have the numerical advantage and no moral qualms about sacrificing them. And taking as many 'enemies' out as possible.

He has no moral compass / no sense of decency / has never learned self control.

In WWII we were able to fight Hitler because the black and white of his insanity and genocide was not debated. War was not held to some PC / micro managed / war by consensus.

I question how good their (NK's) military hardware is / how much is antiquated / how much is second or third string stuff from China. But even a dull blade can be deadly.

If *we* that is those nations with the most to lose, the US, Japan, South Korea *don't* do anything and Lil Kim lobs a n uk3 at Japan, South Korea or Hawaii, for example; *We're* wrong for *not* taking action. If we act preemptively *we're* wrong............

Gonna get screwed either way --- just a matter of when, how badly and by whom.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:03 PM   #4
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At this point, if we go conventional, kiss Seoul goodbye. That's just a given folks. There are so many tubes pointed in that direction that even with our best intercept systems, we won't get half.

Tough choices. Me, I'd nuke the bastards. Low yield tactical nukes on their avenues of advance.

Conventional weapons to mop up whats left until we have an unconditional surrender. And then await the horror of trying to feed whoever remains.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:09 PM   #5
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There is no harm waiting for the new president of SK to tackle the problem peacefully. All these war mongering is for a better negotiation position on the table.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:33 PM   #6
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He wont get shit but a sore throat. Anyone who think bargaining with lil Kim is going to get somewhere, I got a bridge to sell ya. Killing the little prick is the only way short of all out war.

Been to Korea, in 1989. Fuck that noise. I do not want to fight there on a good day.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NowVoyager View Post
The article Pote posted did a good job of pointing out both sides of the issues.

And Dietrich points out that it's not *if* there's a war with NK but *when*.

Sooner or later the Dork of Nork will actually believe he's basically immortal and will sacrifice his nation, it's people and a goodly portion of the Korean Peninsula to satisfy his ego. And in sheer numbers of soldiers / cannon fodder, he does have the numerical advantage and no moral qualms about sacrificing them. And taking as many 'enemies' out as possible.

He has no moral compass / no sense of decency / has never learned self control.

In WWII we were able to fight Hitler because the black and white of his insanity and genocide was not debated. War was not held to some PC / micro managed / war by consensus.

I question how good their (NK's) military hardware is / how much is antiquated / how much is second or third string stuff from China. But even a dull blade can be deadly.

If *we* that is those nations with the most to lose, the US, Japan, South Korea *don't* do anything and Lil Kim lobs a n uk3 at Japan, South Korea or Hawaii, for example; *We're* wrong for *not* taking action. If we act preemptively *we're* wrong............

Gonna get screwed either way --- just a matter of when, how badly and by whom.
I'm not convinced that Kim is as batshit crazy as he comes across... I think to an extent it's a calculated and crafted image intended to dissuade violent action as he continues to try to keep his regime propped up. But I don't believe that he is unaware of how much he would stand to lose if the balloon goes up. I think he excels at brinksmanship. The greatest risk is not, I think, his insanity, but rather a miscalculation or misperception on one side or another that sends the situation tumbling over the razor's edge upon which it's perennially perched.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oric View Post
There is no harm waiting for the new president of SK to tackle the problem peacefully. All these war mongering is for a better negotiation position on the table.
I kind of agree with this but we also give North Korea more time to develop more "bad things". Is the world OK with this?

The cynic in me says of course the world is willing to wait and just call the US war mongers.

When the SHTF (war/collapse with millions of people starving) the world will whine "US, you are the only world super power! Go take care of it! "

We will then say "Sure is the world going to 'split the check'?".

The rest of the world will develop T Rex/Alligator arms which cannot reach to their wallet.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockd View Post
Tough choices. Me, I'd nuke the bastards. Low yield tactical nukes on their avenues of advance.
That was what I was thinking if S ever HTF. But I would guess the US would hand over the launch decision to SK Government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockd View Post
Conventional weapons to mop up whats left until we have an unconditional surrender. And then await the horror of trying to feed whoever remains.
As I commented I think the world would expect the US to do the heavy lifting and if it didn't roll out the way the world expected we would get the blame.

I am sure that China would own some of it but I would guess it would be troops going to the border and putting up zones to keep the Chinese towns was being over run.
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:57 PM   #9
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China and SK together do not whine half of what you do (USA) and they are neighbors with NK.

Just like Iran is your problem (well and the Saudi and Israel) but not all the others in the region.

Stay away, things will be peaceful
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Old 07-18-2017, 06:11 AM   #10
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Oric said ....
Quote:
China and SK together do not whine half of what you do (USA) and
they are neighbors with NK.

Just like Iran is your problem (well and the Saudi and Israel) but not all the others in the region.

Stay away, things will be peaceful

When an idiot with a history of violence and making threats ,
has a gun pointed at your head , ignoring him is not necessarily
your best choice .

Why doesn't Turkey pull out of Syria and ignore the PKK ?

..
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:42 AM   #11
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Your example is just wrong.

By the same logic, the NK missiles are able to hit Beijing and other near nations decades ago, yet you never see Chinese ships encircling NK. If you say that NK will never attack China because they are their proxy, then by the same logic NK will never attack USA because USA will held China accountable, yet we don't hear this logic officialy. NK is described as a rogue nation. But why don't their neighbours do what USA do
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:56 AM   #12
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Using your logic, the PKK can attack anyone around - Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon etc. Why is Turkey so worried? PKK don't even have nukes.

I will remind you that NK has specifically threatened the US. So, we have to assume that once they have the means to do so, they might do so. The same applies to Japan and Korea, who are plenty happy letting the US do their dirty work. They'll never admit that but it's the truth. Regarding China, I doubt you are so naive as to think NK would ever attack China, or that they would stay their hand against the US, Japan or SK due to possible blowback on China.

When a country with nukes directly threatens an attack on Turkey, post away.

Quote:
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Your example is just wrong.

By the same logic, the NK missiles are able to hit Beijing and other near nations decades ago, yet you never see Chinese ships encircling NK. If you say that NK will never attack China because they are their proxy, then by the same logic NK will never attack USA because USA will held China accountable, yet we don't hear this logic officialy. NK is described as a rogue nation. But why don't their neighbours do what USA do
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:13 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockd View Post
Tough choices. Me, I'd nuke the bastards. Low yield tactical nukes on their avenues of advance.

Conventional weapons to mop up whats left until we have an unconditional surrender. And then await the horror of trying to feed whoever remains.
Anyone else see the irony in the idea of using nukes to stop someone who might be crazy enough to use nukes?
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:29 AM   #14
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Threatening is hot air. PKK constantly attacks, I don't know how you can relate the unrelated to defend your position, and still get the usual "Thank you useful posts". Bah !

All my Middle East politics comments have come to be true in time, despite the sarcastic comments and twisted truths that I have received by I guess majority likes to hear what they want to believe.
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Old 07-19-2017, 11:10 AM   #15
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Glockd's logic is the same used to bomb Japan. We must save millions of lives and if we have to use nukes - we'll do it. The calculus is really simple. Everybody wins - except the NORKS.

The rest of the wars will be non-nuclear (I hope)
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Old 07-19-2017, 11:51 AM   #16
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So chemical and biological should be on the table as well, as the ends justify the means.
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Old 07-19-2017, 12:03 PM   #17
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ONLY if North Korea uses them first.

No one has let the nuclear genie out of the bottle for more than seventy years and we shouldn't start now.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodia View Post
Anyone else see the irony in the idea of using nukes to stop someone who might be crazy enough to use nukes?
Well, that's the way that dad did it.
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodia View Post
So chemical and biological should be on the table as well, as the ends justify the means.
Just as the "Nuke them 'till they glow" crowd is wrong, the "Peace at all costs, including capitulation" crowd is also wrong.

War should be avoided, and be the last refuge. But unfortunately until Christ returns (or we have universal peace and harmony [while drinking a Coke ] depending on your religious bent) war and violence will sometimes be necessarily.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Old 07-20-2017, 07:11 AM   #20
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Relax everyone , the UN has banned nuclear weapons .
Quote:

More than 120 countries have approved the first-ever treaty to ban
nuclear weapons at a UN meeting boycotted by all nuclear-armed nations.

More detail here .

..
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Old 07-20-2017, 08:45 AM   #21
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When was the last time the PKK rained artillery fire on a sovereign nation like NK has? Or landed mini-subs with sapper teams? NK routinely does shit like this.

Apples to oranges and a stupid comparison.
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Old 07-20-2017, 09:50 AM   #22
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Quote:
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When was the last time the PKK rained artillery fire on a sovereign nation like NK has? Or landed mini-subs with sapper teams? NK routinely does shit like this.

Apples to oranges and a stupid comparison.
Plus, when has PKK threatened Turkey with a nuclear weapon, while actively developing the means to deliver said weapon? Oric, if the PKK had a nuke, would you be "just OK" sitting around and doing nothing? After all, no one in their right mind would actually use it, right? Would you be willing to bet your life and those of a few hundred thousand of your fellow citizens on this "sure thing"?
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Old 07-20-2017, 11:17 AM   #23
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I am just going to pop in here for a moment and say that the use of nuclear weapons preemptively to destroy an invading army and save hundreds of thousands of lives is justified.

Bombing Japan was a bitch. We all think so - but it was justified. We find ourselves in a similar situation where we must do one of three things: 1) we continue to be blackmailed until the NORKS take over South Korea and threaten world peace at will, 2) we try to bomb their artillery and nuclear sites while they kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, or 3) We join with our partners in jointly loading Japanese Bombers with Nuclear bombs.

It has a nice ring to it.


Seriously, The NORKS are going to launch a missile next week, and Trump is going to bomb the NORKS to distract the nation and Mueller from investigating his ties to Russia. You don't really think Trump is going to let his Son and Son-in-Law testify do you?
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Old 07-20-2017, 11:42 AM   #24
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So now the threshold is it's ok to preemptively use nukes to stop and invading army? How about we use them on those whose fiscal policy we disagree with too. That could save hundreds of thousands of lives as well.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:02 PM   #25
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No one is changing the threshold. Had the Soviets pushed into the Fulda Gap with overwhelming forces we could not hope to stop or delay long enough for REFORGER to arrive from the US, nukes would have been used. Same doctrine, different terrain.
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